Harry Weidner: 0:04

All right, welcome back to our tangled minds. Welcome to our tangled minds. Welcome. I'm Harry Weidner. I'm

Jack Weidner: 0:15

Jack bagnatto,

Harry Weidner: 0:17

and we're back again. We're back from being back. We're back. We've got some explaining to do. I understand that we

Jack Weidner: 0:28

I mean, the short of the matter is, we knew that Donald Trump was coming back into office, and we knew that white boys were gonna have their moment. And we thought, now's the time to profit. Now is the time to profit off of this. We're not starting it like that. That's how we're starting it. I think it's really good. I think we're not we're not starting it

Harry Weidner: 0:55

like that. I refuse so like that. What do

Jack Weidner: 0:58

you mean? Everyone knows that we're joking. No, that's how we're starting it. So we have some explaining to do. I don't think we have to explain. I think we just say, I think we should just say what we've been up to. We've been busy doing busy.

Harry Weidner: 1:18

I got into medical school, so I'm in Colorado, and you moved to New York. I moved to New York. You're in Brooklyn, and we've just been busy. So we haven't

Jack Weidner: 1:29

and being fully transparent, our mother and grandmother just also moved from their house of 50 years to a smaller house, so they have been downsizing as well, and we have been trying to help with that too. There's been a lot of movement in the past couple of months.

Harry Weidner: 1:48

So it's it's been chaos, but I don't know. I've missed doing this.

Jack Weidner: 1:55

I've missed chatting with you,

Harry Weidner: 1:59

but this is a fun part. This is a fun part of chatting. Yeah, so we're back, and I don't know we've been trying to schedule this for a couple weeks, but it's just never worked out. And here we are on MLK Day recording this. Hopefully it comes out in a week, if I can get my stuff together. But what else do you have to add before we get into what we're gonna talk about? Nothing.

Jack Weidner: 2:27

I mean, I think we haven't talked about you moving to Denver. There's some things we could talk about, like, Do you Do you not want to talk about you moving to Denver? Do you talk

Harry Weidner: 2:36

about it? If you want. We could talk about med school, your

Jack Weidner: 2:39

semester in at this point? Yeah, we

Harry Weidner: 2:42

don't need to talk. You joined the Navy. Yeah,

Jack Weidner: 2:47

it's a lot of life updates. You want to keep this, keep the updates too. And pretty much

Harry Weidner: 2:53

what you just said, I'm in med school. I joined the Navy. I'm in Colorado. You're in Brooklyn. You still work at the same job I think are you still just as lost as ever?

Jack Weidner: 3:03

Yeah? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I was explaining mom was like so for Harry and I were both home over Christmas break, break, but Christmas and Harry woke up on his 25th birthday, decided to run a marathon, and I was his water boy, which is pretty that's pretty much, describes our relationship. You were my support. You were my crew. I was I was his support. I was his wife. I drove around in a car and I filled up his water. He would throw his water bottle in the car, and I would fill it up and give it and then pull ahead of him and then hand it to him out the window so he could continue this time of running the marathon on his 25th birthday. And for the final replenishing session, my mother goes with me, and she's like, how cool of it, or our mother, I guess she goes, how cool of your brother just walk up and wake up one day and want to run a marathon. Like, he's just such a interesting like, he's such a driven guy, like, he sets a goal and he's just able to make that happen. And then she kind of looks at me, and I'm like, Yeah, Harry is amazing. Like, I don't know what to say. I'm like, Yeah, I guess I wake up and I kind of feel around like I can't see and I said, that's actually a really excellent way of, like, describing how you and I live our lives, like you're very driven. You set a goal, you go after it a little bit, and I'm out here feeling my way around in the dark until I stub my toe, and then I'm like, You know what? I'll try again tomorrow. So yes, I'm as lost as ever, but I'm loving Brooklyn. Good, good.

Harry Weidner: 4:47

What's been your favorite part about the city

Jack Weidner: 4:52

not having a car? I don't know if that's my favorite part. I mean, the food's fantastic. I like the people I meet, but. Like, relying on public transportation has been really nice. And I walk, I get to walk everywhere, which is great. Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 5:05

what's your closest subway?

Jack Weidner: 5:09

It's about a eight minute walk. It's not bad, no. And I pass a, like, a grocery store. So if I'm, like, going to the subway on my way there or on my way home, I can stop and get groceries for dinner or something. So it's just really nice.

Harry Weidner: 5:22

And do you have, like, local places where you can go do work?

Jack Weidner: 5:27

Yeah, I don't. There's coffee shops. Sure, I work from my apartment. I work from where I'm recording this. But

Harry Weidner: 5:34

I thought, I thought one of your favorite things was, like, going to a coffee shop and working

Jack Weidner: 5:39

or reading. Yeah, that it is I go places and read. I don't like to bring my workplaces with me, because then I'm like, mixing a place that I like, like a coffee shop, with something that depresses me. So I'd rather just, like bring something that I like to the coffee shop. If I'm enjoying myself, I'll bring a book. Keep the depressing stuff. Keep the depressing stuff at home, depressing stuff where I live. Yeah, that's good,

Harry Weidner: 6:03

yeah,

Jack Weidner: 6:05

yeah. Sensible. What's your favorite part? What's your favorite part about Denver? I like how

Harry Weidner: 6:11

sunny it is all the time. Like it's it's seven degrees right now, and it's beautiful. Feels like 19

Jack Weidner: 6:18

i i do crazy think Denver would be so nice all the time. You said every day is pretty much nice. It's pretty

Harry Weidner: 6:26

much nice every day. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. What's

Jack Weidner: 6:30

your favorite part about med school?

Harry Weidner: 6:33

Ooh, that's a that's a bigger question. I think that it is awesome, and it feels really good to finally be where I've always wanted to be. It, does it? People say I'm living the dream and like I every day live the dream, and it feels so good. So I wake up and I'm I'm really happy about where I am and what I'm doing and how hard I've worked to get here. I'm very grateful for the amount of resources that have gone into getting me here. And no, I love it. I in my favorite part about med school is like interacting with patients. Tomorrow, I'll work in the maternal fetal medicine clinic with my first year preceptor, and that will be awesome. I love my first year preceptor. I love talking to the patients. I love learning how medicine actually works. It's all, it's all awesome. So I could talk, we could have talked for 45 minutes about how much I love medical school.

Jack Weidner: 7:33

We could, and we often do. And it's not, yeah,

Harry Weidner: 7:36

yeah, no, it's, it's really great. I'm super happy to be here. I think

Jack Weidner: 7:42

everyone's very happy for you. I can't believe we haven't recorded an episode since Mom and I came out to visit you for your white coat ceremony. Yeah, but because I think we tried to record an episode, and then Tech had technical difficulties, and then we stopped. But I think in that episode, I said how surreal it was for me to sit there and realize that the culmination of everything you have worked for in your life was beginning, and that was a really surreal moment

Harry Weidner: 8:10

for me. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, it's special be a part. Thanks. It feels, it feels like Good to be here. What?

Jack Weidner: 8:20

Yeah, having this conversation, I am painfully aware of one of the lines from the article that you sent me last night, which was, it was they were giving the example of someone who frequents escape rooms, and they say, how often someone who frequents escape rooms will like to tell other people that they've done X amount of escape rooms, and the person will talk about it, and then what they fail to understand is that no one cares on escape room, right? You could ask other people about their experience with escape rooms, but no one gives do we swear on this podcast? I don't remember. I'm like censoring myself, but I think I do last time, I won't say the F word. No one gives a shit about escape rooms or your experience about them. So now I'm like, Ah, do they care that? I mean, obviously people care what you do. But I'm just like, everything I bring up nowadays, I'm like, do people care? Probably not. I do wonder what people care about. Well,

Harry Weidner: 9:19

that's a good transition to what we thought we Yeah, I like that. I sent jack this article last night, and it, it was Harry. Will

Jack Weidner: 9:30

link it in the show notes. I will, or you

Harry Weidner: 9:32

will, because you're gonna write these. Oh, I'm gonna write, I we're gonna write the description, and I'm gonna, I'll put the link in there, unless you want to,

Jack Weidner: 9:40

well, I can put the link in the description. That's not her. Let's just tell them what the articles.

Harry Weidner: 9:44

Okay, it's it's called good articles have lots of doorknobs, and it's by Adam master. Do you know how to pronounce that?

Jack Weidner: 9:56

I don't Mastroianni do. Sure

Harry Weidner: 10:00

feels good. It was an article written in 2022 about conversations. And I've been thinking a lot about conversations because I think I'm quite bad at them, and it's something that I try. Yeah, right. I don't excuse me. I I don't know. I've been trying to improve my conversational skills, and I think a lot of it has to do with Okay,

Jack Weidner: 10:22

now I def I didn't know we wanted to talk about this. Now I definitely want to talk about it. Okay, sorry, I am now. I wasn't sure how this was gonna go. Now I'm fascinated. Okay, sorry, a lot of it has to do with this. Sorry, go ahead. I think

Harry Weidner: 10:33

a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm thinking about my conversations differently now that I'm in medical school and in a patient, facing role. Does that make sense? I'm thinking about how to make sense. I'm like, hyper aware of how painfully awkward I am in some conversations in some contexts, but, yeah, I don't know. So I've just been trying to figure out how I can be a better conversationalist with people. So

Jack Weidner: 11:05

that's what we have to break this down. All right, break it down because I'm, well, no, I'm fascinated by this because I look at you as someone who excels in conversation. I rely very heavily on you as you know, as I say when we go out, we went out. We were seeing people the day before Thanksgiving, and I loved having Harry there, because anytime someone kept up, come up to me, you know, how are you doing? What are you doing? I don't want to talk to them or talk about myself in general, so I'm like, I'm doing great. You know, Harry is in med school, and then I'd like, shove Harry at them. And it worked really well, because you can talk to any or from my perspective, you can talk to anyone so and I don't necessarily, I've had some awkward interactions with you, but to go out in public with you is I feel that you're very open. You are very you have a very friendly presence to strangers, to people in life, and you will talk to anyone, and that is very interesting to me. Okay, so you feel that, oh, go ahead, yeah,

Harry Weidner: 12:15

I was gonna say, like I I don't like that, because I don't like talking about me either. I don't sure like I want in a conversation. I want the other I want the other person to be talking about themselves, and I want that person to to leave feeling really good about themselves, rather than me just talking about all the nonsense that I'm up to. You know, sorry,

Jack Weidner: 12:41

I don't know. I should have, I should have clarified. I don't know what you talk about. This is, this is interesting, because what we're going to do is we are going to eventually, inevitably talk about self perception, how we want to be in front of people, and how we want to be seen is different than how we might be, how we might appear. How do we get there? So we're gonna eventually get to there. But I didn't mean when, when someone when I say, oh, you know, my brother's in med school, talk to him. I don't mean that you talk about yourself. I don't know what you talk about, because as soon as you come in, I've stopped paying attention, I've stopped listening. I've stopped caring. So, like, what I'm saying is you are willing to talk to people, and I'm not even willing to do that. Like, like, let's start with the very basis of like, you seem engaged with other people and that, I think when people get to know me, they know that I'm less than I outwardly appear, I know that I appear when I'm there. I'm like, oh, like, I'm so easy in conversation. But like, you know that I get like, sweaty, and I start to, like, I start doing this, like, weird thing with my hands, where I grind my knuckles together. And it's like, very easy to the end. I do, I know, and

Harry Weidner: 14:02

it takes,

Jack Weidner: 14:02

like, sorry, go ahead. No, you, no, I was just gonna say it takes a lot of work, and for you from an outward perspective like so, as someone who relies on you in conversations and groups, you do very well from my perception. So it's fun to hear me to hear you talk about yourself,

Harry Weidner: 14:22

yeah. So let's, let's break this down, this podcast down, I think what you just brought up leads naturally into our different perceptions on small talk. Yeah, and I know that you hate small talk and I like small talk, because I think small talk has a really important part in in connecting with someone. But so we can talk about small talk, I'd like to hear your your opinions on the good conversations have lots of doorknobs, and then we can kind of just, yeah. Uh, wrap it up. Talking about conversations in

Jack Weidner: 15:03

general, I want to, I real quick. I kind of want to i when this will come out, but I want to be sure that we talk about you not feeling like you're good in conversation. But you cited a very specific example, which is you not being good in conversation, possibly, or you not being at a level that you would like to be at a conversation with patients that is a very specific, very niche vein of conversation where you have a tremendous amount of knowledge, and so you have a tremendous amount of power over individuals. And I feel like, I don't, I want to, like, dissect like, do you you talking with your college friends, obviously, is different than you talking with a patient? Do you feel that you're also not good at talking with your college friends? Like I want to, I want to dissect why you said you're not good at conversation. Because this is a very general statement for you to then provide a very specific example of when you feel that you are not at the level you would like to be at. Now that might come up, but okay, yeah, I think I will come up because I will make it

Harry Weidner: 16:11

to just briefly respond to that. I think I'm spending a lot of time taking what we're learning about conversational skills in school and trying to apply them, maybe not apply them, trying to think about every interaction that I have with people more broadly. That makes sense. So I'm thinking about conversations more than than I normally would be.

Jack Weidner: 16:38

No that it makes sense what you said, but it doesn't fulfill my curiosity of what that means. All right, well, so you're thinking about conversations more broadly, yeah? All right, fine, fine. We'll get into this. Okay, you want to, you want to start by talking about small talk? Yeah, you don't like small talk. About small talk, I It's, I don't I don't know if it's I don't like it. It makes me uncomfortable. I get nervous. Why? I don't know. I'm sweating right now, thinking about it like, I need you to understand I am hyper aware of why, like I'm putting myself into situations. I'm only talking about things that I don't like, passing time chatting with people because it makes me uncomfortable and I can't get engaged enough to put my okay here, here's what it is. If I am talking about something that I am passionate about, I turn off the little self censored. Be terrified of yourself. Switch in my head, because I am just I've entered some sort of flow, right? You and I are talking about ideas, abstract things, or just things that I care about. I will chat all day, every day, I will become impassioned. You will say, Jack, you are yelling, and it's great. I don't even notice if I am not at that passionate level where I'm just freely speaking, trying to explore something with someone. I am so aware of everything I am saying the way that I'm saying it. I hate that, and I get nervous, and I'm like, oh, this person, like, doesn't even want to talk with me. Why are we talking? I'm getting nervous. And no, like, the weather doesn't satisfy that unless we're like, you know, complaining about how hot it is, and I'm like, really miserable. I'm like, it is so hot. Climate change is terrible. LA's on fire. Let's have a conversation. But no, if it's just like, oh, the weather today, huh? Yeah, it's cold. Oh yeah. I'm hyper aware of what I'm saying, how I'm looking I'm like, Oh, this person's like, looking at me like, Oh, my God. Small talk while I'm eating. Small talk while I'm eating a salad is the worst I'd rather, I'd rather skydive than have conversation while eating a salad. Of a small talk like I just can't.

Harry Weidner: 19:03

Do you see a point in small talk? No,

Jack Weidner: 19:08

because I don't view it as general genuine. I don't view it as genuine connection.

Harry Weidner: 19:13

So how do you get to genuine connection, if not through small talk? Right? I see, I like to see small talk as a gate, because I'm not

Jack Weidner: 19:24

gonna learn deeper connections

Harry Weidner: 19:25

Harry, and I think it's, I think it's Adam Grant, and you like Adam Grant that I love that says curiosity and small talk. What does he say? He says curiosity and small talk can reveal surprising connections and insights that open the door to deeper connection. So I you, you just said, No, you just said that the whole like hot outside climate change, right? Isn't that a isn't that abrupt? And. Abrupt transition to something deeper, but say you're talking about something hot, and then more gradually, and as you build trust in that relationship, isn't that a great way to talk about the things that you want to talk about?

Jack Weidner: 20:15

I'd like to put a caveat, and maybe this is an important qualifier. I feel that as soon as Curiosity has entered the realm of conversation or the relationship, it is no longer small talk, because to me, small talk is something that happens to pass time. Small talk is not a way to get to know someone. Small talk is a way to make an elevator ride a little like less like a little easier, because people don't like silence.

Harry Weidner: 20:46

But is there no value in those conversations, just in case something interesting gets brought

Jack Weidner: 20:54

up? Yeah, I'm not, but I'm I wouldn't classify that as small talk or something interesting gets brought up, then what I would classify Small talk is something that is meaningless between two people, where you're just trying to pass the time, but

Harry Weidner: 21:09

if you enter that conversation with curiosity, then those meaningless things, those seemingly meaningless things, might have meaning. There's a reason. Sure, talking about something,

Jack Weidner: 21:20

how often? No, there's not. There's not always a reason people are talking about something so so often we just say,

Harry Weidner: 21:29

I just say, I just say, most of the time,

Jack Weidner: 21:33

but I see I disagree with you. I think it's rare. I think a genuine conversation is rarer than that. You think? I think so often the words are hollow, more hollow. Small Talk, to me again, is like a waste. It's, it's talk you have while you're waiting for your prom with their father, while you're waiting for their prom date to come down the steps. It's and it's not the conversation where he, like, looks at you and it's like, if you, if you wrong, my, you know, my son or daughter, I will kill you. It's, it's like, Oh, yeah. Like, so you know, what do you want to major in in college? Like,

Harry Weidner: 22:16

like, I would, I would say that that has an extreme value view. That is, that is deeper value, right? And it's, it's establishing a relationship. It's the very first connection that you have with someone. And it, I think good small talk like that can make people feel valued and sort of break the ice for deeper conversations. So like, what are you majoring in? Some people, what are you majoring in, right? That could be considered a small talk question. But behind that question, there are so many, so many gateways of, why, why do you want to major in that? What is your interest in that? And that's a deeper conversation to be had. From small talk.

Jack Weidner: 23:03

You're right. I should relent. Or I should say, I should concede that you are correct, that that can be the avenue for more. I will say, some people I hate introversion, extroversion, because, again, that is the spectrum. And I think a lot of people like over, under, use, whatever, but some people don't like being asked that question. And I will say, so, you know, like, so let's follow our example, right? So a parent is grilling a perspective date on for their for their child, and they say, What's your major? Take my example, right? I'm about to say English major. And then immediately, what can happen in that? It

Harry Weidner: 23:52

can go two ways. They can be really interested in that, or think you don't know what you want to do with

Jack Weidner: 23:57

your life exactly. So when does that conversation become meaningful? Is if you explore some of those you know, oh, that's really cool. That is not necessarily exploring something, not asking, but like, also them saying, what are you going to do with that? Those attacking you, then you're going on the defensive. So I wouldn't say so, but if you're going on the defensive, that is the conversation developing into like a deeper thing, into a deeper conversation, but not necessarily fruitful or helpful to either party. So I think like we're now creating kind of barriers, of like, if it stays small talk, if they just say, oh, cool, then I feel like that conversation of like, Hey, what are you majoring in? Is worthless. Because. Then it's like, okay, cool. And then it's done, yeah. And then if you go, if you force them into a place where they don't want to go, or where they're not comfortable, also not a good conversation.

Harry Weidner: 25:15

But you've still learned something.

Jack Weidner: 25:21

You've not, if you not, if you stick to small talk,

Unknown: 25:26

but I

Jack Weidner: 25:27

guess you've learned, like a fact, this is interesting to me. I feel like we're both in I feel like we're both engaging with the possibility that we are wrong, but also that this is really complicated.

Harry Weidner: 25:47

I think conversations are complicated, and we've all left conversations where you feel really good, and we've all left conversations where you feel really bad, and I think trying to figure out what makes you feel good and what makes you feel bad in a conversation is really hard, and that's what I found over the past couple weeks, months, pinpointing man That felt great with that person. What was that? It was so many things, but I think of small talk as a really good way to gage someone's energy, mood or interests, as a way to pursue further conversation or stop if, if you are trying to talk to someone, and Maybe you find someone interesting, and you approach them with, you know, some small talky question, maybe commenting on the weather, their response is, is a measure of where they are in that moment. Should you further pursue, or should you not further pursue? Say they turn to you, turn toward you, and greet you with a smile and say, Yeah, it's really hot outside, you know, but the sunshine is great. Then you further pursue. You can have a conversation about that, but if they just say, No, you've learned that they don't want to be they don't want to be involved in a conversation right now. So I find that to be valuable, right?

Jack Weidner: 27:28

Yeah, I mean, what you just said for sure,

Harry Weidner: 27:32

so I don't know. I think these small, brief interactions that we have with people, they serve a bigger purpose than just a superficial Damn. It's hot out or cold, you know. Okay, this was great, actually, yeah, this was handled from yesterday. So I was walking Woody in the park, and I saw a guy in the dog park walking his dog. I'd met him before. I commented on how cold it was because it was actually freezing cold outside. It was one degree or whatever. And he said, Yeah, it's cold, but this is my first winter. I was like, Oh, where are you from? Turns out he's from California. This is his first proper winter, so he's not bothered or upset by the cold. He's actually really happy that it's cold, because it's cold and sunny and he can be outside with his partner and his dog, and they were throwing a Frisbee, having a great time, and like that led to a conversation. I commented on his dog's jacket. Said, I love your dog's jacket. And he said, it's it's from Goodwill. It's a toddler size six. Did you know that children's clothes come in age sizes? And I was like, I actually had no idea. I don't know how kids work. So we had, we the me commenting on how cold it was led us to a conversation. I now know where he's from. I now know this is his first winter, and I now know that children's sizes come based on how old they are,

Jack Weidner: 29:03

this is so interesting to me, because I think we are getting not like we're talking about how we communicate. I would never engage with that person. Why not? But I would go for a walk, and I would observe how they interacted, say, with their partner, or how they were they were like with a dog. And I would ask questions, and I would say, Okay. And I might, you know, write a poem about it, if I thought it was a pretty, you know, if it was a pretty scene. And to me, I would say, okay, so, you know, what is their dynamic like? Why are they out here in the cold throwing a Frisbee so joy, like, and yeah, to me, like, that's very beautiful. It would be like, Oh, to a happy couple in the snow, right? That's so interesting. And I would love to do all of that without the conversation. You. You feel that you gained a tremendous amount by talking to that person, and I, by not talking to them, would not feel like I missed out on anything. And that is interesting. Aren't

Harry Weidner: 30:12

you interested in No, because you just want to make your own story for him. I don't know, because

Jack Weidner: 30:17

some there's a part of me that's like their story is not really my business. So I would observe and asking myself questions. I would be very I would say I would be focused on, like, my perception of them through my own eyes. But like, I wouldn't want to do it in like, a selfish way, like I'm like, like, I would project things on that, but I would ask the question, like, why are they happy, and how does that impact me? And, like, should I be happy right now? Like, how do I find joy in the snow day? But I would be. I'm also the happy person outside of the snow. So, like, obviously not. That's a hypothetical. But yeah, to me. Like, he like talking to them. I don't, I don't know that wouldn't necessarily. Like, I don't seek out human interaction all the time. I and I know you do, and maybe so when you were initially talking about small talk, absolutely I can see benefit. You know, you're, you're in, I've been there, right? Like I've, you know, you're in a patient's room. How are they feeling today? You can't get into, you know, hey, you know your kid, you know, we ran some tests your kids aren't doing well because you're, you know, if you're in an ICU, whatever, right, whatever medical thing is going on, which you

Harry Weidner: 31:32

don't want to talk about, no, I don't want to talk

Jack Weidner: 31:35

about the medical stuff. But I can understand small talks, importance, engaging, how that person is feeling. Yeah, and I wouldn't say that I don't use small talk if I have to have an awkward conversation with someone at work or I am trying to probe. Small Talk in that sense, is a tool I can understand that I was wrong to blindly say that I hate small talk. But I would not say that I seek to use small talk in all interactions, because, to me, yes, you found out about someone and meeting them and knowing that is a wonderful thing, right? Connect humans. Connecting is beautiful in most senses, however, I don't know if I would still consider that small talk like, I don't know if I would consider that something like tremendous gained from this amount of small talk, because I think, like, the stress it would have caused me to, like, say something to them would be overwhelming, like, and I'd come out of that interaction thinking I sounded like an idiot, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like, all that stuff. So, yeah, no, I don't know. It's a very personal thing. You are so open and willing to engage with people, don't you think that in this conversational way?

Harry Weidner: 32:59

I mean, it's, it's interesting how I feel like a lot of your thoughts involve the human experience.

Jack Weidner: 33:11

Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 33:14

Do you think it would benefit you to be more openly engaging with those around you to think about the human experience. Would that change your perspective? I mean,

Jack Weidner: 33:27

obviously it would change my perspective. Like, everything you do changes your perspective. I mean, if you want my like, honest opinion, like, if I were playing devil's advocate with you, I would say that most people lie and that it's more honest to observe quietly than it is to have a conversation and see how they perceive themselves, which is what you're getting from that.

Harry Weidner: 33:53

Okay? Good devil's advocate.

Jack Weidner: 34:00

Yeah, it's like, what do you want out of the interaction? You know what I mean. Like, do I feel like I know people after that? No, do I feel like I know that that version of them in that millisecond from my own perspective? Sure, by watching, okay,

Harry Weidner: 34:22

how how? Then have you met the closest your closest friends?

Jack Weidner: 34:33

Oh, my God, I mean my best friends in college? Yeah, that like I have that. I just officiated her wedding. This is so funny. She and I were talking, and she said that she hung out with me because she felt bad for me because I was sitting alone. So I have met my closest friends because they're people like you who come up to me and force me to have a conversation.

Harry Weidner: 34:58

So someone who I. What did she say to you first?

Jack Weidner: 35:04

Oh, my God, I don't know. She just

Harry Weidner: 35:06

because she certainly didn't start talking about climate change. No,

Jack Weidner: 35:10

I think she just like sat down with me. She actually, Ashley is an interesting person, because I think we were in a class where we were having big conversations together, so she might have just continued a conversation from class, which was, like, big conversations, like, you know, like, how is the US healthcare system, you know, what is privatized industry, all that stuff. So that might have helped.

Harry Weidner: 35:38

So let's take it to the article. Now, let's talk about the article. Yeah, let's go to the article. It titled good conversations. Have lots of doorknobs. Do you think what Ashley did in that moment? Provided a doorknob to you. She gave you a doorknob to further engage or shut the door.

Jack Weidner: 36:02

Yeah? I mean, obviously she was a

Harry Weidner: 36:06

the article talks about being givers, which is what those who ask questions or takers, and takers are those who share stories. Do you think that your role as a giver or taker changes depending on who you're interacting with.

Jack Weidner: 36:24

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it has to because, and I feel like it it, I think your role as a giver or a taker not only changes on who you're interacting with, but it probably changes as the conversation evolves how you are feeling that day, what is going on in your life, and it could change throughout, like an infinite amount of times, throughout, even, like the same millisecond of conversation.

Harry Weidner: 36:58

I think you and I change, whether we're givers or takers, even in this podcast, I think it's,

Jack Weidner: 37:03

I think definitely in this podcast, we do.

Harry Weidner: 37:07

But you had said something interesting over text, and I don't remember exactly what it was about this article. So could you share that?

Jack Weidner: 37:15

Yeah, I don't know what I said, but I will pull it up. They said something in the article that I thought was interesting, where they said, a lot of people think that the best conversation is waiting for someone to finish talking and then responding, but people actually like it better if you are responding quickly within milliseconds, like this kind of rapid fire approach. And that got me thinking of this kind of, what about people who listen very intently, like better than you and I like we all know people who are very silent after you say something for long periods of time, and that is uncomfortable, but that is such, that is such an essential I feel like an important part of conversation that I feel. I felt like the article focused a lot on talking, asking questions, but they didn't mention listening as a way of propelling that conversation or digesting the information that you're being told. I don't know how you felt about that.

Harry Weidner: 38:24

I don't I don't know what role I think listening, yes, just as important as talking, if not more, especially like in my role, people would

Jack Weidner: 38:38

say it's more Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 38:42

but you also have to drive. The cons a conversation needs a driver just as much as it needs two

Jack Weidner: 38:56

drivers. I think that was what the article was, was getting at that, not to look at it as a conversation needs a driver, but it needs two parties in tandem, working together to advance something that it requires a good conversation, right? Because a lot of the article talks about how givers get angry that takers never give back. It's like, oh, I just asked you 300 questions. You didn't even ask me how my day was. And takers are like, Oh, they love listening to me talk. But I think a good conversation requires is almost like rowing, maybe not even a driver. It's like two parties in tandem working together towards a goal, which is exploration, which is that idea of like climbing a wall. You know, it's like taking two different people and trying and using, you know, both of them, using. Their talents and giving back, which means handing off the baton. Here, you drive, here I'll drive.

Harry Weidner: 40:10

And I think, I think it comes down to self awareness in conversation, right? Yeah, and so say you, how do I want to say this? I don't know. How do you reach that balance? How do you reach that balance of, I'll drive this for a little bit, and then you drive this, or I'll lead, and then you can, I'll take and then you take, I

Jack Weidner: 40:41

don't think you can reach a perfect balance. I think what you have to do is adapt organically, and maybe not honestly, but definitely. Like, I think it I think you're right. Like, I think it takes self awareness, and I don't think you need to take of it as, like, perfect balance, right? Like, I don't think the scales need to be equal, but I feel like both parties need to be heard and understood. So like making sure that you are self correcting, to make sure that you are allowing yourself to feel heard, and that you are being heard and again, hearing the other person allowing them to talk. What do you I mean? What do you think about that? Do you think every conversation needs to be 5050,

Harry Weidner: 41:27

no, I don't, but I don't know. This is where I get stuck in analyzing conversations that Okay, so,

Jack Weidner: 41:38

so now, now we you and I have never talked about you having conversations. What in your med school career has made you start really thinking about how you have conversations and how you talk with people?

Harry Weidner: 41:55

Yeah, we can visit that. I We have to. No, we have a we have a clinical skills class where you interview sort of standardized patients that come in with some prescribed chief concern. And my goal of every single interaction is to connect with the patient. And it's hard, dude, it is so hard. And we'll kind of, I'm gonna discount the cognitive load of thinking like I need to get all of this information from the patient, but my real ultimate goal is connect with the patient. So forget about taking the history in talking about this. You know, I do really try and focus on getting all the components

Jack Weidner: 42:44

of the med boards are listening. Harry does care about taking

Harry Weidner: 42:48

your goods. I do. I really do. But I think the social history, for me, is one of the most important parts of taking a history, rather than like the history of what they present with anyway, my goal is to have every patient feeling like I care about them, and feeling like I'm there for them, and trying inviting them into the care team so that they feel that they're in charge of their care, and we're all just there to support them. So I try to foster that in in every single interaction. So that's that's really why I started thinking about conversations. How can I do that with everyone that that I'm seeing, whether they're standardized patient, an actor or a real patient, and it's really challenging. There was a standardized patient that we had, and he was experiencing housing instability, and my goal was to try and connect with them and try and, you know, invite them into their care, feel supported by the system and connect them to resources, and really, all they were interested in was getting their upper respiratory infection fixed. And I don't know I left that interaction thinking, this is really challenging. It's really challenging to connect with someone who doesn't necessarily want to be connected with, or didn't seemingly want to be connected with, but I pulled out all of the stops that I could. Something that I like to do in my my interviews is I get their name, get their date of birth, get why they came in, and then I say, before we get into that, I'd like to get to know you as a person, so that I can understand your your situation in a broader context. So tell me about you, and then I like when people tell me about them, because as they're giving me the history, then I can say that must be challenging, because you like X, Y or Z, you know. Say someone's a chef, and they come in and they say they're a chef and they have gi discomfort. It's really important to know right off the bat that this gi discomfort is affecting their life more than just they have to use the bathroom, you know? So I try and understand, I try to get a broader understanding of the person from the second they walk in before we medicalize things. And I like doing that, and it feels good for me. I don't I don't know if that's what I should be doing, but that's what I like to do. But when people don't want that, it kind of throws you off. Yeah. So then I think about, how can I if that doesn't happen in the first couple minutes of the interaction, how can I do that throughout the rest of the interaction? I don't know. It's hard.

Jack Weidner: 45:58

That sounds really hard. This sounds really interesting, especially because it does have to do with what we were talking about. How just you and I similar backgrounds, experience every conversation differently, and people go and I feel like you know you're meeting people at their most vulnerable, and I cannot imagine what that is like, because, because I've been on the other end of it, and I know how ill at ease I am to have to try to be the person to put me at ease and and have you know so many variations of that a day sounds terrifying and almost impossible. I'm so interested in the person that you struggled to so you said this was a stage patient, so it was an actor, yeah, with like, a set script, okay? Because I'd be curious, but my brain goes okay. So they don't want to connect with you. They want their unhoused has this, like anyone in the system ever cared about them? Like, obviously that would be very hard to, like, be mistreated by institutions, and then have some institutionalist, like, some young guy just being like, Hey, do you skateboard? Like, obviously you didn't say that. But, like, the idea, you know, and that's really interesting to me, and hard, oh, God, that sounds awful.

Harry Weidner: 47:21

And to be frank, I screwed up in the conversation. I totally messed it up.

Jack Weidner: 47:27

He how? So what did you do? There was

Harry Weidner: 47:30

a point in the in the conversation where the patient had said they were unhoused. They came in with a bag full of stuff. So initially you knew something was atypical with the patient, like they had, they had a plastic bag with belongings in it. But then at some point they said that they were unhoused. And initially, this was my gut reaction, and I said, I'm sorry. That can be challenging. Thank you for sharing, and I shouldn't have said, I'm sorry I I don't think that that was the right response. I think what I have since learned that I should have done was probably general, generalize, and not have my feelings attached to that, because I don't know how they feel about that. Maybe they're okay with with their situation, and they're and they're quite happy, and it's, it's wrong of me to impose my feelings and push my feelings there. But what I should have said is that can be challenging for a lot of people. How are you handling that?

Jack Weidner: 48:49

Isn't that doing the same thing? I think I understand that you're not projecting pity. But you know, even saying that that like I'm not. I would also probably mess up in the same way that you did. I would probably put my foot in my I don't think you did that. I mean, I'm sorry, this mundane, but I would probably put my foot in my mouth worse. I'm just curious your thoughts on isn't

Harry Weidner: 49:13

that doing the same? I don't know. I don't know, but I think generalizing it makes the patient feel more comfortable in the room. You're kind of putting it interesting

Jack Weidner: 49:26

to me. You say generalizing something makes someone feel more comfortable, but I feel like intuitively, it would make them feel less of an individual, like less of a person.

Harry Weidner: 49:41

It's offering a, uh, it's giving them a door knob to talk about their situation or not talk about their situation. Close the door, right? So say generalizing, yeah, right. It's, it's not, I don't have it. I'm not supposed. Have any opinions on that, right? I'm supposed to say that can be challenging for a lot of people, and then they can take that and say, Yes, I'd like to discuss this more. Or, actually, it has been really hard. Or no, I'm doing all right. Thank you. Though, you know they can choose, yeah, they can choose to open that door,

Jack Weidner: 50:19

that you should extend a doorknob. I think that that's wonderful, and I think that that's a great way of looking at it right, like allowing them to control what they want to share, what they don't want to share. But also, I feel like I don't I'm not in med school. I'm barely in med school. The idea, but the idea of this, we're talking about someone being unhoused, and how we shouldn't project our opinions upon of being unhoused. But I don't, I am hesitant to say that, you know, like they like being unhoused people, without people not having homes is a fundamental injustice. Yeah, they could be happy with that, yes, but I don't. I feel like, as people, we need to acknowledge that. I feel like that that is outrageous to be like, well, I can't say, you know, my opinions on the housing crisis in so and so city. I'll just you know, like, I don't think you need to project your views out there, but to say that like you can have opinions on that, I think is outrageous. If they had opened, if they had opened the door and said it is so so if they had done exactly what you said, it is so hard for me. I am every day is hard, and I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow. Then you further pursue the conversation. Then you say, I'm sorry. Then say,

Harry Weidner: 51:53

thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry that. Yeah, no, I think the initial, I think your gut reaction apologizing is projecting pity when they may not want it, yeah, oh, sure if, if they say that, it's been really challenging, and, you know, they struggle daily, yeah, say, I'm so sorry you're dealing with that, that that's really hard. And then you connect them to resources and make them feel supported, and you do everything in your power to help them through that situation. You You have to accompany them through that. But that's because you've handed that you've given that doorknob of you've given the door. Do you want to talk about it? Do not want to talk about it. And I think that's kind of how you navigate it. I don't. And you're saying, I'm incredibly

Jack Weidner: 52:42

imperful. I think that that's a really good point, because it's like you're saying, hand them an objective door knob where they get to steer. Yeah, and you're saying, I'm sorry, add subjectivity to that before subjectivity is meant to be introduced to the conversation.

Harry Weidner: 52:56

Yes, subjectivity can come later, after you've gotcha offered them the opportunity to speak on their experience. And is that the right way to do it? I have no idea, but that that's what feels right to me right now. But I'm open to learning it's all the time

Jack Weidner: 53:18

that's interesting. I i I have dealt with a lot of people recently not dealt with I have been I have had the privilege to interact with people that I love, that have sadly been grieving through death of loved ones or friends or in any way. And this experience has made me think about how I hand or how I interact with people who are grieving. I have found I'm sorry to be both powerful and inefficient. How I have found, how are you to be mind numbingly annoying and unhelpful. It's like, how are you obviously not good, like we're at a funeral home, but the challenges of interacting with that, I have found extending a doorknob to also be extending silence. Let me explain. I have found saying a declarative statement, I love you, I will sit with you and allowing the doorknob that I extend to be silenced between two people and allow them to fill that has been an interesting experience for me. Obviously, you have a prerogative when you're in a when you're trying to take a history and things, yeah, dynamic, very interesting to me, like you're it's exactly the same that you're talking. About where, whatever they want to talk about, I will allow them to steer that ship. But now thinking about the article, allowing them to steer a conversational ship is also a burden.

Harry Weidner: 55:15

Yeah.

Jack Weidner: 55:17

Oh, isn't that so interesting? I just realized that like allowing someone to steer conversational ship is a burden that's hard to think about what you're going to talk about next.

Harry Weidner: 55:28

And I, I think that's why, I think that's why giving the doorknob as a way for entry or exit is so powerful. Yeah, right, because they don't, if you give them that, then they have the power to shut up, to to explore or not. And I think that, in a way, we can circle back to small talk. Even small talk, you're gaging someone's capacity to engage at that very moment. Yeah, so that feels, that feels like the right thing to do?

Jack Weidner: 56:23

Yeah, and I would say to go back to our conversation on Small Talk, having thought about it, marinated on a little bit, I would say small talk lies in intention. And if you were going in with honest intentions, to me, that is opening the door to a conversation and not a way of passing time.

Harry Weidner: 56:45

Yeah, and really that positive intention can be one sided. Yeah, you can. You have the ability, and you have the power to enter every conversation that you have with curiosity and with the intent of getting to know someone better.

Jack Weidner: 57:06

But that also doesn't mean starting or talking to every single person, or starting every you know, like starting a million conversations. It can be purposeful, but it could mean conversation mean

Harry Weidner: 57:19

starting a million companies Exactly.

Jack Weidner: 57:20

It's so personal. I'm not gonna go out and start a million conversations. You might that's not my thing. I don't wanna do that. But

Harry Weidner: 57:30

as long as we both approach those conversations with curiosity and intention, then I think something can be this is actually,

Jack Weidner: 57:44

since it is election day and since Harry now, I really want you to include my joke at the beginning. I do want to open this up that one thing that I have that I guess, if I didn't make any new year's resolutions, but if no, because they're done, we've talked about this before. We I hate them. Yeah, I know, I know. I'm just saying, if I were to make one, it would be to be more curious. And Ezra Klein, who has a successful podcast, when Trump won the election, he said, Now is not the time to shut down. Now is not the time to disengage. Now is the time to be curious. And he challenged his listeners to go out and be curious about the reality about people who don't think like us, about like meaning, like the royal us, like showing one like a personal us, and to be curious about all of those things. And I think that is something that I've tried to bring into a lot of conversations, even with people who I know I'm gonna hate the conversation. Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 58:50

I love that.

Jack Weidner: 58:52

I love that. But you do that, you do that already. You you listen very carefully and you care. It's very evident talking to

Harry Weidner: 59:01

I care dude, more than I know, more than I think I'd like to want to, yeah, yeah.

Jack Weidner: 59:08

Oh, my God, you are so you care so much in a one on one conversation, yeah, absolutely you do.

Harry Weidner: 59:17

I just want to make, I just want to make the people that I interact with feel good, feel supported, feel like their care.

Jack Weidner: 59:25

You want them to feel like they are the only person you have ever cared about.

Harry Weidner: 59:30

I try. It's hard. It's hard. You I

Jack Weidner: 59:34

know, but

Harry Weidner: 59:37

I don't know. People don't

Jack Weidner: 59:38

know that about you. You put on a little shell sometimes,

Harry Weidner: 59:42

um,

Jack Weidner: 59:44

your bros probably don't know that about you, but it's very evident.

Harry Weidner: 59:50

Thank you. Well, thank you, Jack for this conversation. Thank you conversations. This

Jack Weidner: 59:58

was a weird one, because I don't think we were. Answering any questions. And I don't think we were just exploring a topic that was scary.

Harry Weidner: 1:00:05

It I think conversations are a scary topic. Oh my god,

Jack Weidner: 1:00:09

yeah, that was they're crazy. So I will wrap it up. Just before you

Harry Weidner: 1:00:16

wrap it up. I mean, there's so much we could have talked about here. We could have talked about technology and conversations. I think

Jack Weidner: 1:00:22

we should continue talking about conversations. Yeah, because there's so much to say, let's

Harry Weidner: 1:00:27

keep talking about talking.

Jack Weidner: 1:00:30

Let's keep talking about talking. We could get someone, if anyone wants, to come on the podcast and talk about talking with Harry and I email us at artangelminds@gmail.com I haven't checked the email in a while, so I will do that. Also if you or you can text us, if you have our numbers, if you have any thoughts or recommendations for things for us to read or watch or think about, or topics from future episodes, also email us or text us. We so appreciate you joining. I think this will be a semi weekly, semi monthly thing. I don't know. We'll do our best. We're gonna try. Thank you for listening, thank you for hanging out, and we'll see you next time to see how this mess continues to unravel. All right, that's crazy.

Harry Weidner: 1:01:23

That was good. You.