Harry Weidner: 0:00

Hey everyone, Harry here, and I just finished listening to the entire episode. But I wanted to put a quick disclaimer out, because throughout the episode, Jack and I both get quite vulnerable and a little bit volatile. But toward the end, as you'll hear, we come to some sort of resolve. And that's the point of this. We can have difficult conversations and we can still learn from each other. So if you're not interested in something that's different than what we normally do, sit this one out. But if you want to hear how Jack and I really do learn from each other, even after some, some heated debate, stick around and without further ado, enjoy the rest of the episode. All right, welcome back to our tangled minds. Welcome

Jack Weidner: 1:04

to our tangled mind.

Harry Weidner: 1:05

I'm Harry Weidner.

Jack Weidner: 1:07

I'm Jack Weidner. No

Harry Weidner: 1:08

you're not,

Jack Weidner: 1:09

no jack, and I'm ready to exotic

Harry Weidner: 1:13

episode 23. The big two three, gag and I truly honestly haven't talked in a long time. So we're just going to catch up. But we're this is just going to be us catching up. And you're going to have to deal with it.

Jack Weidner: 1:27

I'm sorry, people we didn't I it's been a it's been a rough day.

Harry Weidner: 1:33

Well, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. If you're okay with talking about it. Why hasn't? Why hasn't been a rough two weeks for you?

Jack Weidner: 1:42

I don't even know. There's a lot going on. Not even in my life just in the world. And that's been a lot dealing with like just like, wish,

Harry Weidner: 1:53

so I knew Jack was going through it when I texted him on Monday. And I said what do you want to talk about this week? Like we got to record the podcast on Friday? What do you want to chat about? And he said, and what? Yeah, bring it up. What did you say?

Jack Weidner: 2:09

No, no, go ahead. Go ahead. And

Harry Weidner: 2:10

you said something about Doom or impending doom.

Jack Weidner: 2:15

And then it was it had to do with what I was listening to. On Monday, I was listening to the daily but I wasn't even know it wasn't the daily. I was I must have been listening to the New Yorker.

Harry Weidner: 2:31

And so you said impending doom and I said what impending doom? Oh, yeah, I

Jack Weidner: 2:35

was listening to the New Yorker podcasts on the dilemma of the Israel Hamas war. So I was down in the dumps.

Harry Weidner: 2:47

But I feel like you've been down in the dumps about worldly of and I get it. I understand. It's hard to not be down in the dumps about worldly events. But I think that you let that affect you so deeply.

Jack Weidner: 3:03

It just in my from my perspective. I'm a short man. Let's start there. Okay, let's start with my height. So my four eight on a good day Shut up. I'm very small. Okay. I do not have the tenacity of a cockroach. So this idea that we are small and mighty, not in my lexicon. And like, we there's this idea that we're just told to wake up, and you know, do our darn toute NIST every day, and one day you'll die? And yes, apathy is not a good thing. But my God, like why am i What are we doing here? We, you know, we talk like there's this is gonna be depressing episode. I'm sorry. You. Yeah, I'd love to make jokes. And I do like, I want to make jokes. But I think yeah, like, Okay, so let's, let's take let's take this for example. How long have you and I've been hearing about climate change?

Harry Weidner: 4:17

years? 10s of years. You're like our whole life.

Jack Weidner: 4:21

Our whole life. You remember those World Wildlife Fund? commercials where they show the polar bears on the ice caps? Yeah. What has been done about nothing? Nothing. Nothing. Our government hasn't done a goddamn thing about that. Yeah. And they want me to like just be like, Yes, this is fine. What world are we going into? Like? It's like, I'm so short. And so small, both in stature and metaphysical significance. What What is going on? What what how could I not get depressed about this? I literally, I can't I don't eat, you know, I'm, I'm basically vegetarian. I reuse, like I try I do my best to help the planet in ways that I can't. I want to get electric car blah, blah, blah, right? What about this thing? I can't do anything, but you can do your best. I'm doing my best, right? But the problem is my best is painfully not enough. And other people who can do more aren't doing their best. So why do we show up and do our best? I feel like this is like, why old people are like Gen Z doesn't have a work ethic. And then Gen Z is like you gave us no world to work with. And it's like, yeah, like I get I get both sides of that. But I do. I

Harry Weidner: 5:52

don't think that behavior is new, though. I think that older generations have been saying the next generation has fought for years. Yeah.

Jack Weidner: 6:00

But then the greatest generation went it was it the greatest the greatest generation, whoever what what is what are the generations fought in World War One, and then the next one fought in World War Two. So they did rise to a challenge. I just like I don't these these challenges that we are facing are not ones. Well, World War One is actually a kind of what we're once addressing to me, because it feels I keep bringing up ideas that were brought up in World War One, the idea of monotony the idea of, you know, the factory input as like, you know, like, we are just chess pieces on board. Because if you think about World War One, it had no purpose. The only thing that accomplished was World War Two.

Harry Weidner: 6:55

I mean, so that's the case with a lot of wars.

Jack Weidner: 6:57

Right? So like, like this idea. I think we're we're one is very apt because we have larger players at hand, let's call them the, let's call them monarchs, controlling for petty things. You know, like fighting wars for petty things. People like us just die in masses. And then at the end, they're just like, well, we're sick of it. But we're like we go. We're in the trenches, doing their work, for pettiness. And I feel like that's very apt to these kinds of things, where it's like, the people that can make these decisions won't necessarily deal with the repercussions. I don't know to what extent you and I, given our privilege in this world will deal with the immediate repercussions. But there are people who are dealing with repercussions right now. And eventually we'll catch up with us. And that is what leads me into this whole Doom mindset. Not even to mention the politics of this. We have to relive 2020, which I don't know if I need to remind you wasn't the best year globally. That wasn't like, Oh, God take me back in there. 2008 the world's on No, we 2020 was like here is the worst. do with it what you will?

Harry Weidner: 8:32

And yet, we're still here.

Jack Weidner: 8:35

Barely. What do you read? What? What kind of quiet? What kind of,

Harry Weidner: 8:39

I hate why we're here we are. How much I want to ask you. This was a question I wanted to ask you. You spend a lot of time in this doom mindset. But how much time do you spend in a gratitude mindset?

Jack Weidner: 8:52

How often do I spend in a gratitude mindset? I never, I think I'm very grateful for very specific things. You know, I'm surrounded by books, that is a blessing. i The other day, I just I looked at my coworker. And I said, I just feel really lucky that we live in a world with all of these incredible ideas and, and books like a hand. I I'm incredibly grateful for our mother all the time. I'm grateful for our mother, our family. The upbringing that we had, which you know, by conventional standards is broken. We come from a broken home, but I thought we were very grateful for that I'm grateful for the food that I made. And I do I take that time to reflect every day. I do take the time to reflect that I'm grateful every day. Yeah, the problem with that is my personal gratitude does not make the imposing cataclysmic event though I think we're all feeling go wet. Because like, I can be very grateful for family. And I can be very grateful for the position that I'm in. And then people say, Well, do you want kids? And then boom, right? Like, glass shatters, like, I'm grateful for family, and then glass shatters, do I want my own family? What worldwide? Why

Harry Weidner: 10:35

do you let Why do you let that shatter your glass?

Jack Weidner: 10:38

Because I think to me, you have to acknowledge the problems for it to be an authentic decision to live without acknowledging those things. And the very real consequences of them, I think, is artificial. And I think it's false. I don't love I'm not perpetuating this mindset, or advocating for I'm certainly perpetuating it in my life. But I'm not advocating for the this like complete nihilistic Doom, right? Like, we you say, Aren't you thankful we're here. And I say we are here. And I think those are two very different things.

Harry Weidner: 11:22

What is what would you say? Your, because I think you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum. We are what is your emotional home? Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. My emotional. Yeah. What's your emotional home? Like, what is this time? What is the state of mind that you spend the most time?

Jack Weidner: 11:43

You're really sarcastic? Um, I don't know. Probably a little bit more Maillot melancholic.

Harry Weidner: 11:52

Yeah, what about No, I, I default to happy, I default to feeling very empowered, and like a winner. And like, I can sort of accomplish my goals. And I think that that's kind of how I cope with this impending doom. And this cataclysmic event that you're talking about, whatever that might be, but I, if I have to feel a certain way, I choose to feel happy. Because that gives me a lot of the power to be able to control my life and what I'm seeing

Jack Weidner: 12:40

the benefit of feeling sadness.

Harry Weidner: 12:44

I do it but you know, it's like, there is benefit in seeing sadness and feeling sadness. But that should not be my emotional home, I see no benefit in that being where I spend most of my time. I spend, you know, I do spend a lot of time thinking about Alright, what's the worst thing that can happen here? You know, that's a question I asked myself all the time.

Jack Weidner: 13:14

And what is your answer to that? Because I feel like you and I would have different

Harry Weidner: 13:17

what? What's it like? What's the worst thing that can happen in my life? You're

Jack Weidner: 13:21

in New York City for the day. What's the worst thing that could happen?

Harry Weidner: 13:24

Yeah, I worry about our mother dying all the time. I

Jack Weidner: 13:28

worry about that, too. I worry about that, too. That's like a very, I have two worst case scenarios, our mother dying, and the place that I like America being used. And those two lives separately in my head. Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 13:42

But you know, it's like and so what happens if that happens? I don't know. Right? And that but but, but accepting that it's going to be okay, and things are going to be are you kidding me? Yeah, no, I'm not

Jack Weidner: 13:58

what we're we're we're we're we're way, way way. Okay. I was gonna follow you. I was gonna go on this journey. If Washington DC is if something happens to Washington, I'm not

Harry Weidner: 14:12

talking about being nude. You're just like, we're gonna be okay. Jack. You just kind of have to accept it for what it is. That's

Jack Weidner: 14:19

not exactly accepting for what it is. That's not like what do you have to be grateful for today? That's not like, what we're here that's that's ridiculous that like this idea of like, you have no like, that's, that is an outrageous thing to tell you to say to someone. It's outrageous to be to have what I will acknowledge you shouldn't live in fear that Washington, something's going to happen to Washington DC. I will say it is getting harder and harder to stop thinking about certain things like that given In this state of the world, but to be like, it's going to be okay is ridiculous.

Harry Weidner: 15:07

Why? Why is that a ridiculous thing? It's accepting what happens. And using that

Jack Weidner: 15:14

there's not there's not always a positive. I think this is this is what's interesting to me. I am not always interested in finding the positive in the situation, because I don't always think it exists. I think that there are that there might be silver lining, that there could be good stemming from the bad. But I don't think that to like to make your line of sight, but positive at the end of it is a healthy mindset.

Harry Weidner: 15:41

And on the flip side, I don't think your mindset of focusing on the negative aspects of everything, and dwelling in your doom, and ruminating is productive.

Jack Weidner: 15:55

Oh, it's certainly not productive.

Harry Weidner: 15:58

And I frankly, don't think that's healthy. It's

Jack Weidner: 16:01

it's not healthy. And I think the danger, there's a great danger in it, because it would stop. If we were presented with the opportunity to let's say, Save climate change. And the person that is going to save it is now has reached the point of apathy where they are just numb to everything and they don't go do it. That's a bad thing. It's very bad. Yeah, that's terrible. But I don't write I got this is gonna get so nihilistic. I just like, I love talking with people that have a pot, like,

Harry Weidner: 16:38

why would you not have a positive mindset?

Jack Weidner: 16:42

What is there to be truly like, Okay, so we're going to focus personally, and I want to, I want to like, acknowledge that there is a lot to be happy about. From a personal standpoint, we have love, we are blessed to have the family that we do have. Let's go macro.

Harry Weidner: 17:01

Let's, let's do that how much your macro isn't your daily life?

Jack Weidner: 17:09

Yeah, but how much I guess your, your

Harry Weidner: 17:11

micro versus macro micro is your daily life, your micro is what should be influencing how you're feeling. And that's not to say, don't think about the macro. But that's to say, really appreciate the things that you have, and the control you have in your own life and focus on those things. So that you can handle the macro, don't let what happens,

Jack Weidner: 17:34

push your macro invade your micro, because you and I are speaking from a place where that hasn't happened that is happening all over the place, the macro invading the micro,

Harry Weidner: 17:47

then you have to reassess. But But then, I mean, why would you spend all day worrying about the macro invading your micro when your micro frankly is incredible. I mean, where does that get you?

Jack Weidner: 18:08

I I will acknowledge that I don't think it gets you anywhere. I think like what this episode's going to be, is you and I coming at it from these these two extremes, where I don't think we necessarily live. I mean, I think that there are people on different spectrums. But what I wanted to have this conversation for is I think it is so important for these two sides, where I think people are establishing camps to acknowledge that there are positives and negatives to both of these and both of them are valid at different points.

Harry Weidner: 18:53

Okay, it

Jack Weidner: 18:55

because it's absolutely asinine. For people to be like, well my micros, like that kind of thinking is that idea of kicking the can down the road.

Harry Weidner: 19:07

But kicking the can down the road.

Jack Weidner: 19:10

What are you talking about? Of course it is living with the micro and just being like, this is great Jack, but oh my

Harry Weidner: 19:18

god, I'm going to school for public health. In one way. Is my micro not kicking your down the road. My micro is working toward a more equitable future.

Jack Weidner: 19:32

You're in college right now. You have no policy experience. You have not spoken. I

Harry Weidner: 19:40

have learned and I work in. Please do.

Jack Weidner: 19:44

What have you done to help make healthcare better and we are

Harry Weidner: 19:48

working on something that funds telehealth to increase health equity. This is for a department of state a State Department of Health In what way? Does that not help?

Jack Weidner: 20:03

I have, I'm not saying it doesn't help anyone. I'm just saying you have to understand that the like, the health care problem in this country has been kicked down the road by people saying this is good enough. And then stopping. I'm not going to stop you, right? But that's you looking at the macro problem. I'm not looking at down the road. No, no, but this idea of you're not happy with that you're not happy with no,

Harry Weidner: 20:35

but I'm working toward being able to

Jack Weidner: 20:38

write, but that doesn't have to do with you being like,

Harry Weidner: 20:42

what am I grateful for? Yes, it does.

Jack Weidner: 20:45

What what, how? Explain to me how I

Harry Weidner: 20:49

am incredibly happy with my day to day and working towards this goal of being able to change the healthcare landscape. But

Jack Weidner: 20:56

you haven't changed like. Okay, all right, what we're what we're discussing right now, is this idea of, if you help one person, have you helped the world?

Harry Weidner: 21:14

No, Jack, Harry,

Jack Weidner: 21:17

is, you know what, you know what, if you think you're going to change the healthcare system in this country, something that no one has been able to do in a Congress that has not passed a bill. And God knows how long that they won't touch anything. If you think you're going to change the healthcare system. I will literally get on camera somehow, and eat a pair of jeans.

Harry Weidner: 21:49

I literally think that the health care system will be changed because of the future of people going into health care. Yes. And why not adoptive go? Why not? Why not adopt that positive mindset? Jack? There are 400 students in the school of fucking public health, in my school of public health that want to work toward a more equitable health care future. Are you telling me that nobody is going through that and nobody's working toward it? Why do you spend so much time being negative? Why not be positive about these?

Jack Weidner: 22:20

I think you refuse to acknowledge that there are barriers in place to stop that from happening. But it's

Harry Weidner: 22:29

these it's the existence of these barriers, that allows you to create, you can't you can have creative solutions to these barriers, Jack, it's new people coming in, it's coming in at different perspectives. Why not use those barriers as something to drive you to be able to get over them? That should be the mindset that people should have about these things. If change is ever really going to happen? Why are you adopting this apathetic mindset where you're saying, oh, there's a barrier, it's never gonna happen. That's not what I'm saying exactly what you're saying.

Jack Weidner: 23:04

I am saying it is important to acknowledge that there, it's not as easy as waking up giving God 100 I

Harry Weidner: 23:12

say it was going to be like, let's get this Harry,

Jack Weidner: 23:15

that is your mindset to how you live your life. You wake up and you're like, Let's attack this head on. Sure. But it's not easy. It's no, and sometimes it doesn't work. You okay. And then, and then shape, the

Harry Weidner: 23:32

way that you're attacking it differently. Until it does work chat, like,

Jack Weidner: 23:37

sometimes it does cap and gap that's important for you to understand.

Harry Weidner: 23:42

It, that's simply not true, then you're not trying hard enough. And you're not working at it from

Jack Weidner: 23:48

the writing that you you telling people that they're not trying hard enough. Is such a toxic mindset. Some people have tried and tried and tried and tried. And sometimes there are things in life that just like, I just think then, okay, then Jack, let's,

Harry Weidner: 24:14

why should Why should I even care? Why should I know? Why are there 1000s of dollars going into public health right now?

Jack Weidner: 24:23

There's how many people in the United States? Sorry,

Harry Weidner: 24:26

I don't know a lot. Many.

Jack Weidner: 24:28

I think it's like 350 million. All right. You just said 1000s of people going into public health. Go tell a nurse that there's not a health shortage. I

Harry Weidner: 24:38

acknowledge that there are these challenges, but I'm also incredibly hopeful that the future generations will be able to tackle them. I am optimistic about the future. And I'm so sorry that you're not I'm

Jack Weidner: 24:55

just sick of the like this blind optimism. It's not blind. And What in God's name? Do you have to be like? Yeah, this isn't blind

Harry Weidner: 25:06

Jack public health has had incredible successes.

Jack Weidner: 25:11

Yes, healthcare has gotten better now

Harry Weidner: 25:13

now is the best now is unarguably The best time to be alive. And it's important to remember that it is, Your Honor. So there have been successes. And yes, there have been challenges, but who's to say that we can't work toward a better future? And who has access to health care? I know there's inequitable access to health care, but who's to say that I shouldn't be working toward increasing that access? And these people are rich? No, Jack, that that is such a that is such a defeating mindset to have. Yes, it

Jack Weidner: 25:47

is defeated. It is it is.

Harry Weidner: 25:49

And so now I see

Jack Weidner: 25:50

where we where we wait, wait, it's defeated. But is it realistic?

Harry Weidner: 26:00

I think it is just as unrealistic as my sort of unrelenting, positive perspective. Why

Jack Weidner: 26:09

is it more? Why is it just as unrealistic? Because

Harry Weidner: 26:15

why would I even try them?

Jack Weidner: 26:17

That's, I think that's the most that this is what I'd love to talk with you about? Why do we try? And it is, I think it has to stem from what

Harry Weidner: 26:28

are you? What are you trying for right now?

Jack Weidner: 26:32

Yeah, I mean, I would love for the world to be a better place. I would love for more equitable everything, and

Harry Weidner: 26:43

how are you working toward that?

Jack Weidner: 26:46

Well, um, I donate to a lot of charitable causes.

Harry Weidner: 26:52

Okay, philanthropy short, how are you Jack Weidner? Working towards that?

Jack Weidner: 26:59

Well, I used to work with people from like, So Hank Green always says the best way to attack like, the like the world's a mess is not an oak. Like, that's not like a good goal, right. So you chose healthcare. And I really like education. So I was working with Upward Bound, which is this wonderful organization, best place I've ever worked. And you work with children from underprivileged backgrounds, and first generation college students to help them get into college. And I think that was something that was very meaningful, I had to stop, because I needed a job that I could have health insurance with, and a paycheck where I could live and buy groceries. And then, as I've been trying to get back into education, people say, Why would you go on education, there isn't pay, which is true. The kids are terrible, which is such a basic and terrible, like, it's an oversimplification. And we've watched higher education be completely just like D. valued and destroyed at the upper echelons of the world, and this country, certainly. And now I talk to people, and they're like, well, we're not even trying to pretend like we're going to want our we're not even encouraging our kids to go to college, because they can't afford it. And they won't do well, because they don't have the support system at home. So, yeah, so I guess what I'm saying is, I've, you know, you do things and then real life sets in, and then you try to do other things and that real life sets in. So it's just like, you constantly trying, trying, trying? And then, you know, you watch life kind of beat that down. And then you say, how much more can you keep trying? before? So like, Let's take, for example. The student loan thing, the forgiveness, yeah, that would have helped a lot of people, right. Um, that was actually one of the reasons that I really wanted to go back to grad school because I'm like, I'm not going to be in you know, X amount of debt. Sure. And that just got stopped.

Harry Weidner: 29:41

Yeah. Right. So you have let the external world beat you down. Yeah. And discourage you from doing what you really want to do. Yep. And I don't think that that's healthy.

Jack Weidner: 29:56

I haven't led it. I'm still going to try to do that. that's still my until

Harry Weidner: 30:01

well, how can we take micro steps to where you're working toward that goal actively? Do you have extra time to be volunteering at a school near you? Do you think that would make a difference?

Jack Weidner: 30:16

I volunteer how often? Once a week,

Harry Weidner: 30:19

when's the last time you volunteered at the library? Don't lie to me. Last week, let's good. Yeah.

Jack Weidner: 30:27

And

Harry Weidner: 30:27

so, I mean, I just think there are other steps that you can be taking that, okay, I'll explain why I'm saying this. Because, yes, I understand that the healthcare system is in shambles. But I go to school every day. And I'm surrounded by people with smiles on their faces, and ready to put the work in. And that is incredibly motivated. Can

Jack Weidner: 30:54

I ask you a question that I'm, I don't mean this how like, what are the backgrounds of the majority of the people that you are interacting with

Harry Weidner: 31:06

all the totally diverse group of people? Right, right,

Jack Weidner: 31:10

we're right. But how many of them are coming from the populations that you guys are trying to serve? Do you know,

Harry Weidner: 31:21

I don't know the number, but I'm sure we have many students that are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, we have an entire program designed to get more more people from disadvantaged backgrounds into higher education. And I'm

Jack Weidner: 31:41

sure yes, I'd be I see the numbers, and you know, how that changes their understanding.

Harry Weidner: 31:49

I can say that I'm surrounded by people from all walks of life in school, who do go into class, acknowledge the fact that things are bad, and still attack the day with a smile on their face. And that is just that is very motivating. Of course, we talked about that. Do

Jack Weidner: 32:08

you talk about No, no. Do you talk about like your own backgrounds where you come? Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 32:12

every you know,

Jack Weidner: 32:13

so you've met people that say like, you know, I was that had like those various backgrounds. Not like coming. I'm not talking about like, coming from like a different country. I'm talking about Kim came from Johnstown.

Harry Weidner: 32:26

I mean, yeah. Like the, like the town I came from, what do you mean? No.

Jack Weidner: 32:30

Like, I'm like that, like, kind of like, like, came from poverty and are like you've met them have compensate? Yes.

Harry Weidner: 32:38

Yes. And those people are the most passionate people. They say, I'm here to work toward a better future. And that's motivating to me. You know, and that's, that's my micro environment. shaping my view on how I can change my macro environment. I just, I hate to see you upset. Well,

Jack Weidner: 33:09

I think I hate to not validate people. Do you validate people when they're like, on Instagram being like, the, you know, this is terrible or whatever? No. Like, if someone came? Why would you not VAT? Why would you not first validate?

Harry Weidner: 33:30

What do you like? One? I can't get instagram, like once a day. Okay,

Jack Weidner: 33:35

not I didn't mean Instagram, someone comes in the cafeteria. And they're like, Dude, I just, I can't deal with this election. If you know, so and so wins. It's just going to be terrible. And I'm really scared.

Harry Weidner: 33:47

Okay, yeah, it is scary. I'm not saying that. It's not scary. Yeah, what I am saying, is that

Jack Weidner: 33:59

to actually, like, take a second to like, it's not like, yeah, that's scary. But like, do you actually like, take a second to sit with this person where they're,

Harry Weidner: 34:10

like, let's say what you and all you're doing right now. Right? But I think you're doing a bad job.

Jack Weidner: 34:18

Because you're you're what you're doing is you're saying you don't have a healthy outlook on life. And I agree with you. I don't think my outlook on life is particularly healthy. And it doesn't help me. It helps me identify challenges, and it helps me reflect on like, it helps me feel like I have a kind of like realistic understanding of where things are. And it does get in my head. But I, I am not saying it's healthy. But I think where you're saying is you're listening to me and you'd be like, This isn't good. You need to stop so like yeah, sure, right. Everything sucks, but and I think too to truly connect with someone, you need to say, that is terrible. And I'm so sorry, Jack, I feel what do you need? No, no, I'm just ratably

Harry Weidner: 35:16

bad for you. And the way that you feel is

Jack Weidner: 35:20

not about feeling. It's not about feeling bath, it's about trying to understand where that person is coming from. They are so far removed from any kind of positive outlook, that there is there are no blinds to let the light in. And that I think, is we're so many people, maybe not our friends, maybe not people we talk to a lot, but you've seen them. And I think that's where so many people are today, where we talk about the apathy, and people our age and younger generations, the New York Times just published an article on the outlook that teenagers have for their future and education. And you can be hopeful. But I think more often than not, that makes people in my position. Angry, because they've lost the sense of what to be hopeful for. And I know what you're saying it's how do you know what to be hopeful for is a brighter future. And that's so true. But I think when we go back, and we say there, you know, what is our have we gotten? Are we better overall, than we were so many years ago? Yes. Yes, to a lot of people feel that. Like, a basic American dream is to own a house that wasn't always available to every single person. And now it is available to even less people to have a place that is their own, in which they can build a base. That's available to less people. So they get mad at their landlord. Because their landlord, from their perspective, collects their money that they aren't. And their landlord just happened to own property. Those people are sitting in it. And I just don't like I think, to reach them, you have to sit with them and experience that and chart up together the path back to seeing light. It's not going to just be like, yep, but you've got to you got to do this thing. Because that's you're not trying hard enough, because I think we're just so past it. But you know, I mean,

Harry Weidner: 38:13

I'm going to ask you this question, and it's going to come off as insensitive. Why do you feel that way? Why do you feel that your life you and I were raised pretty much identical. You and I come from a very fortunate background. Why do you feel as though you are in that situation? And miserable because of it?

Jack Weidner: 38:47

I don't feel the need to be miserable. Do you want to get real for a sec? Yeah. I because I stayed at home. And when mom and dad got really sick, I woke up after going to bed at 4am to pick them up off the floor. And I stressed with data about finances, and I helped it home. And that is not the college experience. When you're taking your when your mother gets carried by two paramedics at 6am into an ambulance, and you have a biology final to go to. And your grandmother comes down the stairs and collapses and says she was gone. She was gone. And then you go to school. That isn't the mindset where you go and you say this is great education is awesome.

Harry Weidner: 39:59

That's not But like,

Jack Weidner: 40:01

I go home, if mom needs me, I was just home in September when she had surgery. And I walked into the room and she didn't know who I was. And I'm sitting there taking care of their dog trying to work a 40 hour work week. Well, I It's not that I feel the need to feel like this. It's that I do feel like this. It's not like, I want to be melancholy. That might be my natural state of position. But I think I'm not talking about me. There are people that have had it so much worse than me. And for me to be like, You should be optimistic about the world is ridiculous. Because I struggled to be optimistic about the world sometimes, just because like, I was a kid who cared a lot about the fucking environment. And I have watched people not care anymore. And we are in such a place of horror with the environment, that it's just like, oh my god, what can I do? I fucking like as a kid, I was so hopeful. And not one thing has changed. It's only gotten worse. It's not out of a need to feel like this. And I think that is a stigma. If that makes sense. It's like, I get some people want to be like, like, like, you know, like we Yeah, like Blink 182. It's like fun to feel sad. But I think sometimes people just are because of life. And life is hard sometimes.

Harry Weidner: 41:53

Yeah. Well, thank you.

Jack Weidner: 41:55

It's hard to explain to be it's like, yeah, like, I'm some weeks, I'm very in Doom. But I'm gonna like, as long as I wake up the next morning, I'm gonna try to do better because I love people. But it's, it's hard. But if you keep that in mind, and this isn't good, either. Like, I'm not saying what I feel is good. But I want to acknowledge that a lot of people don't know what to do right now. And I think that it's just important that they feel heard, and not even that I'm a good spokesperson person for them. Like, there's a reason when you're in college, you're full of piss and vinegar and ideas. And then you, you know, you have to settle in, some people have to settle it, and they're settling in as hard as

Harry Weidner: 43:02

you feel that you've settled in.

Jack Weidner: 43:05

Now, I feel just as restless as ever, but because I've kept some of my ideal log, you know, Idealist tendencies, I'm just like, distraught I'm not complicit with what's happening. But I feel helpless to change it because I think I look at it as like a macro point of view. Case in point how many Democrats want Biden to be the presidential nominee and they know that they know that and he's still the nominee

Harry Weidner: 43:56

and I, I get that but I also come from the mindset and approach my life with the mindset that with with the optimism that I've talked about, over the past, you know,

Jack Weidner: 44:24

it's healthy for me your optimism is healthy for me.

Harry Weidner: 44:28

But I think what what hurts me the most Jack is seeing you in this state. And and it's hard for me to watch this happen to you and know that you're not feeling okay about the world. And I am I feel helpless in helping you

Jack Weidner: 45:00

I think what helps me is not someone not someone promising me answers but Validating my questions. Because I don't see a lot of answers yet. They might come, they might be that. But right now I'm sitting in questions. And to pretend like there are answers to them. I think, in my brain, though it might not exist in real life is a fallacy. And I can understand how someone like you would be very frustrated with someone like me, who does appear to be sitting rather than running.

Harry Weidner: 45:59

I mean, it my mindset goes back to when I was sick.

Unknown: 46:06

Yeah, and.

Harry Weidner: 46:10

And this has been a very vulnerable episode of the podcast with you, really, but, um, but I mean, yeah, I was fighting every day for that. You know, I fought every fucking day. And it wasn't easy. And there was no finish line. It was a day in and day out battle. And the best that I could do was keep a goddamn smile on my face, and say, I'm gonna get through this. I'm gonna get through today, and I'm gonna get through tomorrow. And I'm just going to keep on fighting through it. Yeah. And that is how I see the world. You know, there was this sort of insurmountable obstacle of when the fuck am I going to get better. And I had no idea how to climb that mountain. I had no idea if I'd ever reached the mountain. And when I sort of reached the apex of my illness, things, things didn't look great. And I just had to say, I gotta get through this. And there has to be a tomorrow. Because there are people that have gotten me to where I am. That care so much about me. And I need to care as much about me as I care about them so that we can all get through this together. Yeah. And I adopted this, this mindset of just keep fighting through it. It's going to be okay, you have to maintain that positivity. Because the second I give up, I don't know if there's a tomorrow. And I just don't give up and I can't give up.

Jack Weidner: 48:03

And you fought really hard through through everything in your life, you've had a lot of obstacles. I don't

Harry Weidner: 48:08

know about that. Well, you've had I mean, you might

Jack Weidner: 48:12

it's like, if someone was living like a you've certainly lived life, at least a day, you know.

Harry Weidner: 48:18

I mean, I don't even want to say that because I just do I do life the way that I think that I should do life. And it's like that is apply myself and work hard, and just fucking put your foot on the ground and go and fight through that pain and get through it. And I try and do it all with a smile on my face. Right? You know, and that helps me. It's like, how greedy can I get? And still say, I love it.

Jack Weidner: 48:53

Do you remember the times where there wasn't a smile on your face?

Harry Weidner: 49:00

There there were bad days. They were trying?

Jack Weidner: 49:05

Yeah, no, you were in the hospital for Yeah, like there

Harry Weidner: 49:09

were bad days. Yeah, there were bad days. And there were days that I hated everyone and hated everything. But I still knew that I had to get through it. Yeah, because again, if I didn't, then I didn't know what what the future had. But I just I knew deep down that if I just kept going and kept that smile on my face. That's why I smile all the time. Now. Do

Jack Weidner: 49:32

you Do you know your spouse pretty in fact,

Harry Weidner: 49:36

people at the gym called me smiling at the Jumeirah Smiley. It's so fun. You know, it's like that's why I just smile. Because it it helps me push through the difficult. Yeah. And so I don't I don't want to come off as insensitive. When I say like anything that I've said this episode, but Well, I think come from it's come from a lot of effort. And it's come from your work area and work. Yeah.

Jack Weidner: 50:10

And everything that you're pointing towards in your life is to, you know, help other people and to make the world a better place.

Harry Weidner: 50:21

I try.

Jack Weidner: 50:23

I think that's like really important. I think people, I think, like you are so determined in that to make the world a better place. And I think because I've,

Harry Weidner: 50:34

I've shifted it in my brain where there is no other option.

Jack Weidner: 50:42

Because we have to get up the next day. That's where I'm not I have to get if I wake up, Rob, Carl Reiner, used to say, before he passed away that he'd wake up, and the first thing he do was read the obituaries. And if he wasn't in it, he'd start his day. That's good. And that, to me, is I think, how I live my life.

Harry Weidner: 51:09

But I like I want you to be able to, like, I just want to share that positivity with you. And I want because what I want for you and this, I don't know why, you know, I want you to be the person that you want to be unbounded by these feelings of negativity and doom and rumination. Yeah. And so I want you to fight for the future that you want, without feeling so compressed by these externalities. Because I think that that truly is the way that you are going to be able to accomplish the things that you want to do. Yeah. Just unrelenting force. And because you have this, this genius and you care, and you're compassionate, and empathetic, and that's all great. But it's sort of like, you're, you're running with a parachute attached to your back. Yeah. You know, and how can you run to that end zone? Free of all that.

Jack Weidner: 52:22

I think everyone needs to find their own momentum for work. I was talking to mom the other day, this is funny, I wasn't gonna tell you not because it was like deep or anything. I was talking with mom. And I said, it was just about what time like you and I hit our peak. You know, like performance in the day, how you I said, I said, I'm glad mom, you and I call it 10 o'clock, because I'm pretty awake and ready to talk by then. And she said, Harry calls me at seven. And I said, by seven o'clock, Harry's already cured cancer, that with the Pope reach spiritual enlightenment, high five, the Buddha and finished out and gone on a 26 mile run. And I said Harry's will is a freight train. I mean, it is an unrelenting, pulsing down, like just flying down the tracks. And you built those tracks yourself, I think, I think you go through, like, if you encounter a mountain, you will like John Henry, hammer your way through it, or you will make that mountain work for you. And that your train will keep going. You have your everything in that. And I jokingly said, I think my will is a hot air balloon. I said on his sailboat, I said probably itself, that's better. Because I want to control the trajectory. But I can't. I'm incapable of going without the wind and whatever that is in my life. And I think that is very much what makes me me. And I think I didn't know why I wanted to talk with you about this. I knew you and I process you know the world differently. I think for me, it's about accepting that the wind will be there and how that has changed how I live my life. Like like when you are God when you were sick those off? I think the helplessness that you feel when I'm like down in the dumps or quote unquote depressed that helplessness. I get that because it was just like watching you and you were ill. And you said if I you know I'm gonna I have to keep has to be a tomorrow because people love me. And I think, because I couldn't completely wrap myself up in in you with what you were doing, we were also young, I will looked around, and I saw other kids who were sick too. And for me, it's like, and this isn't at all what you were saying. But they didn't try less. They tried differently. And sometimes, you know, we're fortunate for how it works out. And I think like, accepting that, accepting that in me, you know, doing what I can while I have to accept you. Oh, my God, I just the first time like we ever worked out together, you were just like, we're gonna do this. I was like, Are you kidding? Like, I was just like, oh, like God, like, I could move. And that's just like, how, like, just like loving that about you in life? And I think, you know, just the importance of, of both of those things. Because I think that's what the podcast is about. Right? You and I are different. Yeah. And I think that that's good that we've been there. And I, I'm very blessed to have that about you. Right, it annoys me sometimes. But you're able, like, even just talking right now. I had a terrible day. It was not a great day. And I started the podcast having a shitty day. Yeah. And that was very, that would be very UPenn. We

Harry Weidner: 56:44

argued for about 30 minutes.

Jack Weidner: 56:47

30 minutes. And you we are having a conversation. Because you were able to pull me out of that. I'm sorry. And I'm grateful for them. But I will never be a freight train. Because I can't be

Harry Weidner: 57:01

but you'll you'll find your path eventually. And maybe I'll get there. You know,

Jack Weidner: 57:06

I don't take out you know, like a sailboat. Not a hot air balloon because that's a little that's a little sad. I'm shaped like a hot air balloon. Let's go. Let's do this. So

Harry Weidner: 57:18

I just want you to be happy man.

Jack Weidner: 57:20

Yeah, dude, but like my happiness is different than yours.

Harry Weidner: 57:26

All right, I'll rephrase that so that it comes across the way that I really want it to. So that you can't say fucking anything back to me about it. I want you to feel as though you are able to do anything that you want to do without being hindered by something that exists. So concretely in your mind. Whereas it might not. It might not be as pressing of a force as you think

Jack Weidner: 58:06

that was a dissertation statement right there. I appreciate that though. Don't get caught up in the doom and gloom as much don't

Harry Weidner: 58:15

be weighed down ruminate

Jack Weidner: 58:18

ruminate you know what meat tastes the best though marinade why it's all that cortisol?

Harry Weidner: 58:37

Jesus Christ No, I

Jack Weidner: 58:45

I appreciate it. And because we're sharing hopes I hope that my relentless pessimism helps you to engage with people. Like me, more empathetic.

Harry Weidner: 59:16

I really appreciated that point that you made. I very much did.

Jack Weidner: 59:23

Think I said people like me. I don't mean to say I speak for all people who suffer with the doom and gloom. That's all I'm saying. But you know. Yeah. Ben, what did he made it? Who needs Jesus? Jesus Christ. I mean, I'm just I don't know if people like listen to this, and they think wow, this makes me think of something in my life, or if they're just like, Who the hell are these guys?

Harry Weidner: 59:56

I don't know what's gonna go on the internet.

Jack Weidner: 1:00:00

But these two guys, these two guys, alright,

Harry Weidner: 1:00:03

I'll wrap it up, wrap us up.

Jack Weidner: 1:00:07

Thank you so much for listening to whatever Harry ends up. Making this into, if you have any thoughts or would like to share any of your thoughts doesn't have to be personal, but just like a jack, stop soaking in it, or, Hey Harry, smile a little bit less. When you're in the grocery store, no one wants to see that thing. Put that away. Let us know at our table minds@gmail.com. Don't forget to rate our podcast. And if you are so inclined, my dear, dear brother is running in a marathon. And he's running this marathon for two reasons, which you will not be surprised. But first and foremost, he's obviously running in it to tell people he ran a marathon and get pictures of it afterwards and hang them on our wall. Because he needs to constantly remind people that he is very athletic and more so than his brother. Second of all, he is running in it because he is running for a charity that he is very passionate about that is in line with his mission to create a more equitable health care system both at home and hopefully someday abroad. If you can donate to his run, Harry will post the links in the bio or whatever that podcast because I don't have the links. And I so appreciate you listening. Thanks for listening to this one. It was real. This was real, real life. And I hope that I hope that you all wherever you're listening, know that whatever emotion you were feeling positive or negative, it is a spectrum. Know that. We care about you and that you are not alone. Thank you so much.

Harry Weidner: 1:01:50

Oh man.