Harry Weidner: 0:04

All righty, welcome back to our tangled minds. I'm Harry Weidner.

Jack Weidner: 0:10

Welcome to up come on. Oh, do we what the fuck you fucked it up?

Harry Weidner: 0:17

Yeah I did. RM jam Harry Weidner. Yeah, it's fine.

Jack Weidner: 0:22

I'm Jack Weidner.

Harry Weidner: 0:24

And we're back, and we're back. We're back with episode 18. We got a doozy for you today. I'm not sure if it's actually going to be a doozy but stick around and find out.

Jack Weidner: 0:36

I don't think so.

Harry Weidner: 0:37

I am going to say start this because I desperately need more fundraising money for the Boston Marathon. I have exciting news. i Wow.

Unknown: 0:47

Yeah, Shameless, Shameless,

Harry Weidner: 0:49

totally. This is absolutely completely shameless. I am running the Boston Marathon with Boston Medical Center. And Boston Medical Center is the hospital associated with Boston University, which I go to for grad school, I'm getting my master's in public health care. It's a great cause they really champion health equity for all, something I'm really incredibly passionate about. And so to be able to run the Boston Marathon with them next April is an incredible opportunity for me. I'm incredibly excited about it. But I need donations. So jacket,

Jack Weidner: 1:26

you need to raise an incredible amount of money to experience it incredible. Did I say incredible, incredible amount of fun? You said incredible, incredible.

Harry Weidner: 1:36

All right, well, it's a great opportunity. And I need to fundraise for it. So Jack, and I will include my donation link in the podcast description this week. And I would really appreciate your support, if you can offer it. And that's my shameless plug. Everyone. So what's new with you?

Jack Weidner: 2:01

I spent my morning thinking about why I find AI to be interesting. And I think it's because and this isn't this episode. But I do want to talk about this at some point. I don't think we've defined what it means to be human. Like it's one of those things where it's like, obscene obscenity word like you know it when you see it, but you can't define it. And I think in the coming world of AI, our understanding of what it means to be a human being, is going to become more and more important. And I'm curious to see where that's gonna go.

Harry Weidner: 2:45

But what does that okay, I'm going to ask you a question, what does that change about anything? Other than just changing a definition?

Jack Weidner: 2:57

No, I don't think we have a definition. I think it dramatically changes how we treat other people, how we understand ourselves and our place in the universe. You know, like, I think we often think about ourselves as logical beings, we've created something that is more logical has access to more information. And, you know, do we then become more part of the natural world? Oh, so if we become more part of the natural world? Where does that change? Like, we're actively destroying the natural world? You know, like, do we then change our relationship with nature? Or we focus in on emotions, you know, like, oh, well, we can emote? You know, that's what people say, is makes us different than AI. So we change the different, you know, we center ourselves around our emotion. How does that change? You know, do we lead with more empathy? How does that change our economy? You know, if you lead with emotion, does capitalism make the most sense, just making the most sense even mean anything anymore? I feel like this is an opportunity to really look at ourselves, figure out what we want to be, and not just take things as they are. I'm not trying to be like, I'm not trying to idealize this. I understand it's changing enough edition, but I do think it should change the way we interact with the world. For example, let's say like, sharks are back on Cape Cod. We haven't really had to deal with a large shark shark population in our lives because they were killed by many people before us, right? We are the Alpha predator, blah, blah, blah, we can go kill sharks. Okay, so then if we like put ourselves back in the mindset of being part of nature, does that then make us have to deal with the repercussions of having a healthy ecosystem in Cape Cod and does that mean that I can't swim without either the threat of sharks or I could just can't swim in the ocean like I You stir. Is that now part of being human?

Harry Weidner: 5:05

I think it's always been part of being human.

Jack Weidner: 5:08

No, it's not. The most part of being human is saying I'm gonna go kill a shark because it annoys me.

Harry Weidner: 5:17

I don't want to agree with that at all. I think you're offering two different perspectives. I think you're offering two different perspectives on what it means to be human. And that's very personal to each individual.

Jack Weidner: 5:29

No, no, no, this is I'm not taking anything away from the conservationists that have worked to protect sharks. I'm just saying, by and large humanity as a whole, though, How about how about we say the Western world goes out and says, I don't like that mountain? I'm going to clear it. I don't like the shark here. I'm going to kill it.

Harry Weidner: 5:59

Okay, but I think you're, you're getting an inch and taking a mile. With that. Really? Yeah. i Well,

Jack Weidner: 6:07

how what would you say humanity's relationship with nature is?

Harry Weidner: 6:13

I think it has changed over time. And I think it will continue to change. But I don't think us using AI to redefine what Being human means. Gets us to where you're taking it.

Jack Weidner: 6:30

I think I'm not saying it gets us there tomorrow.

Harry Weidner: 6:36

Yeah, I don't know. I struggled to follow that. Your argument there?

Jack Weidner: 6:43

Were no, like, we'd no longer be the smartest thing on earth, I would hope No, I'm not. I just think that like, I hope it gives us a chance to kind of reassess where humanity is in the

Harry Weidner: 6:54

war. That's happened countless times throughout history, right? At

Jack Weidner: 6:59

the aid like during times of incredible technological revolutions. Why would this be any different?

Harry Weidner: 7:11

I don't think it's different. But I don't I don't see. The fact. I don't see it changing the trajectory of human nature.

Jack Weidner: 7:30

I'm saying I hope it does. Because it should. Yeah, we've set ourselves up for failure. We don't know what else for failure. I mean, like, I don't know what you want me to say you want me to sit? Like I'm just saying that. I hope it allows us to do that. Because I think it's given us an opportunity to really reflect on what it means to be human.

Harry Weidner: 7:55

Okay, I'll give it that's all.

Jack Weidner: 8:00

I mean, I don't like God. Like, if you are like, if you're so optimistic about the world, why aren't we doing diddly squat about climate change? Like, it's a fucking problem? Yeah, it's

Harry Weidner: 8:15

a mess. It's a mess. I think about climate change a lot. I was just talking to my professor about climate change. Yeah.

Jack Weidner: 8:22

So like, we should do something about it. Like who the fuck is like, I know people are doing things about it. But nothing's being done about it. Right. Because and I hope you know. Because what, because not profitable,

Harry Weidner: 8:35

right? It's not profit. Well, it's not sexy. Easy. No. Yeah,

Jack Weidner: 8:41

it's not easy. It's not fun. So I hope, I hope as a I probably might shake up what it means to like, be human on this earth. Because, you know, we're no longer we might not be the most logical. You know, most like infirm. Like we might not have the most information anymore. We're gonna have to rethink what it means to be human. And that might allow us to open up some doors for positive

Harry Weidner: 9:11

Yeah, that's so mystic part of my brain.

Jack Weidner: 9:15

Sure, we're all gonna die and probably no one's going to do anything about it. And Elon Musk is gonna fucking put himself on Mars. I don't know. Yeah, but like, I'd like to hope.

Harry Weidner: 9:27

Right, I'll give you your hope. I'll give you your hope. Let me hope. But my coffee finished. That's good.

Jack Weidner: 9:38

Yeah, during my rant Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 9:40

What? Oh, rant. Wow, give me a strong I've just been wrong opener.

Jack Weidner: 9:46

I read something by Pope Francis. And I was just, you know, I've been thinking about it a lot today about it. Well, you know, the pope didn't say anything about this. He was just saying like, in times of crisis, so I was reading it his book, I think it's called a path to freedom of path forward. It's a short, short book. And he's just like talking. And he's saying, you know, crises are times to reevaluate, and he wrote it during very early COVID. And, you know, I was, it's kind of sad to look back and, and be like, you know, crisis is a great time to, like, come together as a society, you know, like, we can really reanalyze our views and rethink about how we look at the world in a crisis allows us to do that, and I hope we do. And then you're sitting here in 2023, and you're like, oh, fuck, we didn't do

Harry Weidner: 10:42

we actually? Opposite? But like, right, exactly.

Jack Weidner: 10:46

So. So I hope as like, but he's like talking about, you know, in a Catholic way, but like, it's he's still talking about, you know, we are a people. He's talking about what it means to be human. And I hope, you know, AI, is able to maybe offer us that kind of maybe that shakes up enough, because it doesn't shake up our daily lives, like people I think could go up to your daily life. But I think AI shakes up our perception of ourselves. Okay, I think it shakes up our identity. I think, even if it's not currently doing that, I think the thought of AI shakes up something more fundamental than even COVID.

Harry Weidner: 11:31

I think, Jack, that you're coming at that from an intellectual perspective. And I appreciate that. I appreciate that as much as the next guy. But what I truly think AI is going to do is fuel the fire for productivity, and future progress. And of people or 99.9% of people will not rethink about the meaning of humanity. Because AI exists. That's, that's, that's just what's going to happen. And so Are ya know, right. And I can follow your argument, but I don't think it's going to change humanity. Similar to how Pope Francis said, we're in a time of crisis, we should come together. And we did exactly, yeah, do so.

Jack Weidner: 12:30

And you were, I mean, you're preaching to the choir. I am. I am a pessimist on a good day. Okay. I just, I just hope, I hope to God, whatever God there is. Even if there isn't a God, I hope that something changes.

Harry Weidner: 12:53

Yeah, me too.

Jack Weidner: 12:54

Because this just a good. This dog just ain't gonna hunt. No, we're

Harry Weidner: 12:59

continuing on a very unsustainable path, but a lot of public health initiatives. leverage the fact that humans have more in common than we might initially, superficially said. That is, that's intellectual. Of course, that's basic. And why do you mean cuz Why do you think a lot of public health initiatives haven't worked? It's like, that's why we need to,

Jack Weidner: 13:30

you know, but if we like, ah, yeah, I know. I know. Yep. No, we don't have to talk about this anymore. Listeners, as you can tell, I had a rough morning of thoughts that panned nowhere. I arrived at a hopeful place, right. I mustered up all the hope that was in my body. I came here to talk to my brother. And he shot it with a double barrel shotgun, and then threw it on the side of the road to die and rot in the gutter. So there's no more No, no. Anyways,

Harry Weidner: 14:04

I just think, let's talk about I had a great morning. I'll talk about my morning. I woke up early. Yeah.

I went to bed at 8: 14:11

30pm. Last night, it was great. And I woke up and and went for a run a quick little, little three mile run just to shake the legs out before the race on Sunday. I've run the half marathon on Sunday. This will come out after that, but that's fine. And then I had to do a, I don't know mental flexibility exam for a job that I applied to, which was fun. And then I worked on some of my paper and now I'm drinking a cup of coffee with my brother. Pretty Good morning. I did not think about AI. Humanity because well,

Jack Weidner: 14:50

I read the book last night. I was up till midnight reading. I

Harry Weidner: 14:55

was asleep for three and a half hours at that point. Pretty sweet.

Jack Weidner: 15:00

We live different lives.

Harry Weidner: 15:01

All right? Well, I had the idea Jack and I were talking about what we're going to do this week. And I don't know how I came up with this. But we were thinking we need some time to talk about. So. So I kind of just wanted to talk about coffee. And Jack has an interesting history with coffee. I have an interesting history with coffee. And I think coffee itself has an interesting history with people. So

Jack Weidner: 15:30

I'm not qualified to talk about that history. I don't I didn't look into it at all. This is all going to be like off. Yeah. And

Harry Weidner: 15:36

what Neither did I really, I just the more I think about it, the more I think coffee plays a super important role in society today.

Jack Weidner: 15:46

Yeah, I think I was gonna like when you said, that's an I have an intellectual approach. I was gonna make a joke and be like, Well, I am drinking coffee. So I think yeah, there's a lot. Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 15:57

there is. So I don't know. Let's talk about your history with. Okay, so

Jack Weidner: 16:02

with you? Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 16:03

I've always been a coffee drinker. I've, because our grandfather drank coffee. And I decided that that is exactly who I'm going to become. I started drinking coffee at a really young age. Because he would make it and I would just be like, Oh, coffee, fun. And then I stopped drinking coffee for a long time. Couple years. I think I started drinking coffee, again, senior ish year of high school, when I I don't know why I did. But I did. I started drinking coffee again. And then, as I've always said, if something's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. And so I immediately became just absolutely obsessed with coffee. I had to know everything about it. I had to know about, you know, growth origins and the how the altitude affected coffee, and how you grind your coffee affects the taste of your coffee, I had to learn about different brewing methods. And I kind of got nuts with it. I ended up spending too much money on a nice coffee grinder. I bought some good coffee equipment where I could do the pour over. I also bought a couple of different immersion brewers so that I could brew immersion coffee, I experimented with like filtering it, and I would always buy coffee beans locally, like locally roasted coffee beans. That's something I am really passionate about. And then, I don't know a couple years ago, I just stopped drinking coffee again, because I got sick of it. You know, it was like to spend 10 minutes making my morning coffee drove me crazy. So I stopped drinking it. And then I just started drinking like, I don't know, run of the mill coffee again, which was fine. And then COVID happened. And I would do a lot of my work for school at a coffee shop called Rothrock coffee in State College. I would go every Thursday and Friday morning, get myself a nice cup of coffee and sit there for a couple hours and get some work done, which was really awesome. And that sort of re sparked my relationship with coffee. And then I moved to Boston and I just didn't have time or energy to find a cafe with locally roasted beans. I'm sure it exists. But I started embossed Yeah, no definitely exist. So my apartment building we also

Jack Weidner: 18:34

someone was telling me about this great. Well, I do I want it to someone tell me about this great place in Boston. What was it called? Now start with Dunkin. Dunkin, bagels, Dunkin,

Harry Weidner: 18:53

it's just, it's just Dunkin. Now, yes, people are obsessed with Dunkin coffee here. They're everywhere. I don't get it. But that's something I actually wanted to talk about today, like anti Starbucks, anti Dunkin because of ethical reasons. But yeah, my apartment building has a coffee maker in the lobby. And I just take the elevator down and hit a cup of coffee and it gives me like, a not bad cup of coffee. It doesn't taste like dirty sock water. It tastes like coffee. But it's not like it's not like the coffee that I was drinking when I was brewing it for seven minutes by myself in the morning. You know, it's not light and fruity, like specialty coffee should be. And so that's my history with coffee.

Jack Weidner: 19:41

So this is and I have a question. Why did you never Oh, go ahead. I was just wondering why you never got into espresso. I feel like a lot of people that get in the coffee are like oh, the only good cup of coffee is espresso. So they like get into espresso but you never ever went down. If anything's

Harry Weidner: 19:57

worth doing it's worth overdoing. And so If I were to get into espresso, that's an incredibly time consuming and expensive hobby. So you drew a line, I drew a line and I couldn't, I couldn't go over it. Because the second that I started getting into espresso, I would spend way too much time and money on it. You need a really nice grinder to do it right. And you need really expensive machines to do it. Right. And I just, I, I knew that I couldn't do that.

Jack Weidner: 20:30

I've been curious about this for years. That's no,

Harry Weidner: 20:33

because like, what am I going to do spend $500 on an espresso machine and then get a really nice grinder so that I can get fine espresso grinds, like, because there's a very technical definition of espresso. And it's not. It's not espresso, unless it meets that definition. And so you're drinking your mocha pot coffee right now, which year, you might call espresso, but it's not big. I call it okay. Okay, that works. But some people would call it espresso. And it's just not because you're not reaching nine bars of pressure and that little machine, and the extractions different. The ratios are different. And frankly, the grind setting is different. For

Jack Weidner: 21:16

it has to be you can't use espresso in this. You can't use them espresso grind. Right.

Harry Weidner: 21:20

And so that's why I didn't get into it because I would go too far into it. So I stopped myself. Long story short. Yeah, are you your turn

Jack Weidner: 21:39

I hated coffee. My whole life. I thought it was gross. Our grandfather, as Harry alluded to, we both really idolized our grandfather. So I wanted to like coffee. He drank a shitty black cup. It was terrible every morning. And I let Harry just did it. Like Harry was just like, Yeah, I'll do that. Um, I did not. I tried, I guess I don't know if that speaks like I loved him as much as you I just didn't love him, I guess enough to like, suffer through. So I got really into T because T was something that looked Black and Color tasted vulgar enough that I could feel manly, but not disgusting enough that I couldn't drink it. So I got really into just like drinking black tea and I drink it black like people would be like, I'd order tea out and they'd be like, do you want cream and sugar? And I'm like, no, because I'm tough. I drink tea. And that pretty much just continued. I loved all kinds of tea. I didn't get to.

Harry Weidner: 22:50

I wouldn't say I wouldn't say we got super into tea. You got into like, just bags of tea with different kinds of tea. Like I

Jack Weidner: 22:57

and I drink tea all the time. No. Yeah, you got into coffee and you can Oh, and

Harry Weidner: 23:01

but I did get into tea. That's the issue leave you that's the problem. Talk about your tea. Tell

Jack Weidner: 23:08

me. Tell me about your Oh,

Harry Weidner: 23:09

I know. Well, I feel bad for for interrupting your story, man.

Jack Weidner: 23:13

I love No, I love it. Like yeah, when did you get it now? No good. You keep because I remember you came home. Well, it was funny because like, I was a tea guy. And you came home from college one day with all this tea stuff. I'm like, Whoa, who the fuck is this guy on my tea? Yeah. And then he's like, like, correct me while I was making tea. I'm like, Dude, I'm just, I'm just making the tea.

Harry Weidner: 23:38

Okay, I'll talk about so we're gonna talk about tea for a second. Yeah. And then we'll go back into you like transitioning into liking coffee. I, oh, man. It was freshman year. And I was thinking a lot about like, How can I sustainably study for a very long time and there was a lot of good research on green tea. And so I started drinking green tea. And that is where I got the tea bog. And so I flirted with tea for a little bit into like, understanding where the different tea leaves are grown, how they're roasted, and different antioxidants in the tea and vitamins and minerals within the tea and you have to brew different teas at different temperatures and steep them for different amounts of time. And and I only did that for a little bit, but it was probably a year and a half of me really liking tea.

Jack Weidner: 24:32

And to show how much you did teach me about tea, I think herbal you like a good 175 And that works for most teas, but there are some black teas that do better at like a to 12 because they're a little darker Is that Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 24:47

so I really don't know I don't remember the exact temperatures but you roast black tea or you brew black tea at a higher temperature than you brew green tea. Because you don't want to write in green don't want to ruin those There's antioxidants and all that good stuff,

Jack Weidner: 25:03

right? Yeah, the Jasmine that I have requires 175. That's an herbal tea. So I boil water and let it's no, Jasmine's green.

Harry Weidner: 25:12

I think I have no idea.

Jack Weidner: 25:16

Let's see. Now look it up because I don't want to sound dumb. I think

Harry Weidner: 25:21

Jasmine is green, black or white tea, Jasmine. Okay. All right. Just so that we get this right, jasmine blossoms are a flower. So Jasmine alone is a is an herbal tea if you just have a jasmine tea, but you can mix it with black, green or white tea. And then you have my tea is okay, so you have a green jasmine tea. I have a green. So it's a green tea with hints of Jasmine.

Jack Weidner: 25:49

Yes, we're learning today. And that's that's really like this is like an educational program now.

Harry Weidner: 25:56

Um,

Jack Weidner: 25:56

yeah. So what I do, unlike you is I boil water in my little tea kettle, and then I let it sit until I feel like it's reached 175. And then I pour it and I drink it.

Harry Weidner: 26:11

See, I could I couldn't see I couldn't do that I need to have because do you think though? I don't know. I Oh, I need the temperature to be exactly what the temperature has to be. You know, that's, that's what I do. People

Jack Weidner: 26:25

are catching on. I think people are catching on the we have addictive personalities just about wildly different. Yes. But I think your neuroticism is coming out right now in ways that I don't think the viewers have gotten a taste of yet.

Harry Weidner: 26:40

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm incredibly neurotic. Yeah. Because I

Jack Weidner: 26:47

think they look at me and they're like, Oh, you're so existential. You're psychotic. But now they're gonna look at you. And thank God he would be held.

Harry Weidner: 26:56

I'm sure I wouldn't be, I'm sure. Imagine living in my own head.

Jack Weidner: 27:03

Dude, imagine, I don't think I don't think anyone wants to live in each of our heads. Each of our respective heads, I think is an individual. Anyways, so I was just into tea. I had a lot of just tea all the time. Throughout college and I kept late hours, you know, I would study, my college schedule, I think was literally select. Let's start my day at five o'clock. I'd finish class in the afternoon. And then I'd study I'd get dinner at some point, I'd get back to my dorm if I wasn't on duty. I'd take a nap from nine to 11. And then I would just write from 11 to four in the morning, whole time and drinking black tea. Just black green tea, whatever caffeine sometimes I switch it up sometimes a little herbal. But yeah, no never did coffee throughout college. until my junior year, I took Italian. And I was like I had to go meet these Italian Foreign exchange students to tutor me for extra credit. So I go and I just speak Italian with them. And they would just go to the coffee shop on campus and get espresso. So I would just go with them. And finally one guy, his name was Francesco. I love them so much. But he had said you do you want espresso? I'd say No, I'm okay. I don't like coffee. He said no, no, you don't like shitty coffee. This is espresso was like fuck. Alright, so I did a shot. And it wasn't it. It was the least offensive cup of coffee I've ever had. So I was like, okay, maybe I can do shots of espresso. And from that point on, I think I just kind of I was like, I was like, Oh, I can stomach this. And then the more I did it, the more I started to like it. So like I would do cappuccinos and like very occasionally throughout college and then when I graduated, I was like, oh, I'll just like I would go to the cafe. Like I'd go to a cafe with my girlfriend and I get you know, double shot of espresso if it was past like 10 or something or a drink like cappuccino and I just really started to like it. And I bought a mocha pot so I can make it at home and save some money. Because I didn't want to spend$500 on an espresso machine and I have a very casual relationship with coffee but I do like espresso just like Harry's described what I like I guess is like I it's thicker. Is that right? And darker.

Harry Weidner: 29:45

I don't know what kind of like, I guess you like, like a darker roast. Sure.

Jack Weidner: 29:49

I use I do like a French Roast like chopped espresso roast. I like an americano very occasionally if I'm going to be up for a long time and it's late at night. I I cannot I still don't like drip coffee because to me it's like, watered down and it's just too long. Like it's like When will this end? So that's kind of where I'm at. Like, I feel very pretentious when I say like, I just kind of like want a shot of espresso like, I don't want a whole cup of coffee. That's a big commitment for me. And that's my relationship. Did

Harry Weidner: 30:20

I ever make you like a good proper cup of coffee? I feel like I have.

Jack Weidner: 30:25

I think you did. I think I drank some of it. I don't know.

Harry Weidner: 30:30

Because I think a lot of people don't understand what specialty coffee is and tastes like. And that sounds so pretentious of me. But like what

Jack Weidner: 30:39

you here's, let's let's get into the culture. Yeah. A little Well, no. Okay, you you tell me about like what a good cup of coffee should be and then we can get into the culture. You betcha. I'm pretentious. Specialty Coffee

Harry Weidner: 30:50

is generally a lighter roast. So that you can taste all of the nuance in the beans. And so it's much like wine, where the altitude and the soil that the coffee is grown in gives the beans different, a different flavor profile. And real so I enjoy Yeah, no, it's totally like wine. So I enjoyed like, don't

Jack Weidner: 31:17

get in the wine. Man, I

Harry Weidner: 31:19

yeah, I can't you. I never Yeah. I enjoyed. I enjoyed, you know, tasting different beans from around the world. And Rothrock did a really cool thing where they had a relationship with the people who grew the beans. So they would have they would they would have these informational pamphlets. So you could really understand about the roasting process, and some coffees are fermented. And I don't know, it was just a very fun, interesting thing to do. But I think most people don't understand specialty coffee in that light. Most people like a medium to darker roast because they think that's all that coffee is. But typically popular. Coffee has that flavor. Because they're subpar beans. The longer you roast a bean, the more you can mask. Bad flavors that Yeah, yeah, so a darker roast. Generally, I don't want to say, you know, totally, but a lot of the time has is an inferior quality bean. And that's being roasted for a longer time to mask some. Some off flavors. Yeah. It's interesting.

Jack Weidner: 32:35

Is it okay to like a dark roast? Yeah, absolutely. I think I guess I guess I wouldn't know. Like, I don't know if I've had a light roast. It's just

Harry Weidner: 32:43

like wine. Where it's nobody's pleased to judge you, you I like you like what you like, and I'm not going to yuck your yum. I enjoyed specialty coffee. And that was my, my jam. But if someone is like, I love a darker roast coffee, I'm not gonna be like, that sucks. That's the grossest thing ever, you know, everyone's entitled to their own opinions. And they like, yeah.

Jack Weidner: 33:11

Where do you get into? Like, what do you what's your opinion on like, mixed? I don't want to say mixed drinks. But like, we've cappuccinos we have lattes. macchiatos you know, do you ever did you ever get into I know you like a cappuccino? Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 33:23

I love a cappuccino. And recently, I've been drinking cappuccinos more and more, because I'm so incredibly vain that I don't want to stain my teeth with black coffee. So I adding adding some milk to it, you know, reduces the potential for staining your teeth. You know, you

Jack Weidner: 33:38

can do shots of espresso and literally just shoot it back.

Harry Weidner: 33:41

I know. But yeah, I

Jack Weidner: 33:42

don't know. I don't know. The dentist told me that. She said What kind of coffee do you drink? I said, espresso. She said that's good. Just shoot it back. Don't let it touch your cheek. Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 33:51

Yeah, the acidity in the coffee mixed with the pigments just doesn't bode well for having a white smile. So no, where do I Where do I fall on opinions of like lattes and cappuccinos. I love a cappuccino. I don't love a latte. It's too milky for me. But you know that's again, that's my personal preference. I don't like when places call something a cappuccino and it's not a proper cappuccino. You have a story about this from yesterday with your macchiato a cappuccino. It's traditionally two ounces of espresso, two ounces of steamed milk and then two ounces of foam. So it's a six ounce drink. And oftentimes people offer you like a small medium or large cappuccino, which by definition is not a cappuccino. Again, a really annoying pretentious thing to know. But yeah, I don't I don't mind a good milky drink. Every now and then.

Jack Weidner: 34:50

I love kimchi. I was just curious. I don't know. Um, yeah. I I'm just so curious. Like a lot of people have very hard opinions on Coffee where I see I see a lot of like, I think Italians don't order cappuccinos past 10am But

Harry Weidner: 35:09

yeah, there's some there's some rule there's a rule but it's like it's something with their their tummies.

Jack Weidner: 35:16

I think it Yeah, I think it's too it's that they're too heavy. So I don't there's like a part of me that had like, read that and someone was really mean about it on the internet. So I got scared. I was like, I don't want anyone to think that I'm like, you know, weird. So I don't order this past 10am Now, or before six. So like, between 10 and six. I don't order a cappuccino and then I'll I'll get a cappuccino in the evening. Yeah, I

Harry Weidner: 35:46

see I something that you said

Jack Weidner: 35:48

you're not an evening coffee. Oh, I'm an E, I'm a big evening called

Harry Weidner: 35:53

No, I am not a caffeine like after 1pm kind of guy. Because I do believe in the science. That caffeine has a half life of about six hours in the body and different people metabolize it at different rates. But generally speaking, the half life is about six hours. And so try not to drink caffeine before six hours, six hours before you go to View go if I go,

Jack Weidner: 36:18

if I go you have a healthy normal bed, I go to 8pm If I go to bed at

Harry Weidner: 36:21

8pm Like fuck, you know. So you have

Jack Weidner: 36:25

a healthy, normal bedtime and you like your body isn't a schedule, and I am a mess. So I don't have a healthy normal bedtime. So you know, I'll do a little sleep to dinner. You

Harry Weidner: 36:40

would do that. And that's crazy.

Jack Weidner: 36:43

I love it. It's about I love that. I just love the taste. Yeah,

Harry Weidner: 36:47

if if the only way that I'll do that is if I'm like going to a bar and I'm gonna have myself a long night.

Jack Weidner: 36:54

Man what doggies has like a coffee drink? And

Harry Weidner: 36:59

it's pretty good. And

Jack Weidner: 37:01

it was so an I. I needed that when we went out with your friends like no one's business. Yeah, I'm that was like I was resurrected from the dead with a drink.

Harry Weidner: 37:15

Yeah. Let's, let's transition you brought up a bar and much like a bar. I think cafes. Yeah, coffee shops hold a special place in our culture. And the way we see it today, I think coffee is really an incredible thing. Because it's it's not only a drink, but it's something that people can use to connect with each other. Right? So a lot of times

Jack Weidner: 37:47

what I think food has that power more broadly. And I'm like curious what how coffee connects people in a special way.

Harry Weidner: 37:55

Think about how people will say, oh, let's just grab a cup of coffee. You know, there's something about saying, let's grab a cup of coffee. You know, it's like, it's a really good way to catch up with people or it's a really good excuse to say, let's catch up with people. Without the commitment of quickly.

Jack Weidner: 38:14

Yes, with food. When you say let's get a cup of coffee, it can be a three hour affair. It can be 30 minutes,

Harry Weidner: 38:24

but it doesn't like it doesn't. It's so dependent on how the conversation is going. So what are we having a good time? Are we having a bad time? If we're having a good time, let's stick around and sip on our coffee. If we're having a bad time. I gotta I gotta hit the road. You

Jack Weidner: 38:39

know, or like, I think a good Cafe is somewhere where you can finish your cup of coffee and still sit and feel welcome. Yeah, to like, you don't feel like you have to get out the door. As opposed to a restaurant. Yeah, where a restaurant, you know, you might have you have a timeframe. I think like a great coffee shop is somewhere where you can sit for a long time or a brief time, like however long you want. Yeah, and

Harry Weidner: 39:05

the dynamics of a coffee shop. I love. I love people watching. I know that. But I also love people communicating. But a coffee shop or a coffee shop is a great place to like, watch interesting people do interesting things.

Jack Weidner: 39:23

I sit with a book and a notebook. The quotes that I have gotten from coffee shops are just amazing. I don't know if I have any on my phone. But people will just say anything like they're like they're not in public. Like they're being listened to. Like I've listened to people talk with their friends about if they should get a divorce. And I'm like you're in a public place. It is 10 in the morning. And I love it like I'm like where's the popcorn?

Harry Weidner: 39:51

Yeah. I don't know it. I think the atmosphere of a coffee shop is a really open and inviting place for people to have those comfortable conversations over a cup of coffee. I think that it's so something over a cup of coffee is so powerful.

Jack Weidner: 40:11

This is the most recent quote that I wrote down on my phone. And it was all that I heard because I believe, but it was, it was just a woman talking with her friends. She goes, it's like incestuous. And I was just so curious. I was like, What are

Unknown: 40:28

ya? Yeah. Fascinating. So, guy, you go.

Jack Weidner: 40:34

No, no, go where you're gonna say,

Harry Weidner: 40:36

No, you go.

Jack Weidner: 40:38

I'm just, I'm curious. Because I think this is I have a question. I feel like coffee has such a place. Among. I think like, we often think like, if you're, you know, you can be pretentious about coffee, you can be pretentious about wine. It's like this. Like, I think in some ways it's elevated. If you're like doing it at a coffee shop, if you're like overdoing it, if you take like if you have like an intellectual relationship with it. So like, I think like the coffee shop crowd, like this, like idea of hipster. Like I think it's very intellectual, I think is very tied to literature. And the humanities, like the freedom of thought like counterculture, you know, is very, it's very hip. Right. counterculture is mainstream right now. And I think the coffee shop has taken a really unique place in society where you see a lot of that, like, Oh, you want to be bohemian? Let's go to a coffee shop, and sit there for you know, a long time and get coffee and blah, blah, blah. I'm just curious. Is that like your experience? Or is that because with watch on TV?

Harry Weidner: 41:46

Well, yeah, coffee, coffee had a lot of history in the enlightenment, actually. And this is what I don't know. Yeah, coffee, had some history with the enlightenment. And people would drink coffee as opposed to alcohol because it would sharpen their mind. And so I wanted to talk about coffee too, because I think it plays an enormous background role in so many advancements that have happened. You know, it's like, there are people and intellectuals who have been fueled by coffee for hundreds of years. And I think that I think it plays a really important background role in in what's going on and what people are thinking about. So I have a had a professor, my mentor is one of the greatest people that I know, he always has a cup of coffee, no matter what. And it's just one of those things that I associate with him, and then I associate with his thoughts. So, I mean, how many great books have been written by people who have been drinking coffee? You know, into the wee hours of the morning? probably hundreds of 1000s.

Jack Weidner: 43:05

Yeah. And I'd be curious to see how many of them are drinking coffee and how many of them are alcoholics? And I'd be curious to see what the difference.

Harry Weidner: 43:13

Yeah, I don't know. I I don't know anything about this beyond my, my own experience, but I think a lot of good work has gotten done. When people are consuming coffee.

Jack Weidner: 43:26

Yeah, I think like, you know, like, the idealized place to go to do schoolwork now is coffee. You're working on something coffee shop. John Green wrote The Fault in Our Stars of Starbucks. I think it was a Starbucks. It was a coffee shop. I know that. And I'm just really interested in its ties to so I didn't know that about the enlightenment. Yeah, play the highest into play,

Harry Weidner: 43:54

it was played a pretty big role. And also, this is going back to like the coffee shop as an as a community entity. I was at a coffee shop last Friday with my friend and we were getting some work done. And I've always known this, but I just put like my finger on it. Why coffee shops are so important for communities. It's because they were advertising local artists. You know what a great there was local art all over the walls that you could buy. And what a great place to be able to showcase your art if you're a budding artist on the walls of a coffee shop that's visited by people from the community. And Milhouse does this back in Johnstown. I mean, they not anymore. They used to.

Jack Weidner: 44:42

They used to do the art. They don't do the art, but they

Harry Weidner: 44:46

thought of art. They also hold like community events. Yes, they

Jack Weidner: 44:51

do, which there are like there's certainly a center for the community.

Harry Weidner: 44:56

And I hadn't thought about it like that before, but I think coffee shops play a role. really important role in building a sense of community? In a neighborhood?

Jack Weidner: 45:08

Yeah. Interesting. I don't know, I have this weird relationship with countercultural ism nowadays, because it's become so mainstream. It's like, everyone wants to be at a coffee shop having this image during this thing. And I do too. And I hate that I do that. I want that I want to be a part of that. I don't know why. And it's, it's so annoyingly, like, it feels so superficial, that I think like any of that read, like substance that was to it, like, you know, like going to a coffee shop having a really, you know, quote, unquote, intellectual conversation, whatever the fuck that means. Yeah, I just is that gone? Like, it hasn't just been replaced with like AI. Now I need to go and be seen at a coffee shop to partake in that image of what it means to be part of a community or this that the other thing? And I'm just curious, like, what are your thoughts on that?

Harry Weidner: 46:08

I think I think if we think about the history of counterculture, it, it has been very dynamic over time. And so I don't think that's an human nature is to go against a part of human nature is to go against what is mainstream? Yeah, yes. For some people and to feel into feel like you're doing your own thing. And then, yeah, that has caught up with and people go on to do something else. You know, it's, it's just like how trends change over time. And so I like that your experience with a coffee shop, is just because what you have enjoyed, and do enjoy. Modern Culture has caught up to that. And you don't like yeah,

Jack Weidner: 47:06

it's just like, I hate. And this goes into my rant. I don't like, there's so much like a feeling of like, I get anxious going into coffee shops nowadays. Because like, there's like loud music, and there's like a bunch of people and everyone's standing there. And it's like, I just want to sit. And like, I want people there because I like like, just like listening and stuff. But like, it's just I always feel like I'm on display there. And I feel like you know, like, I have to like do this thing. And I just, I don't want a call like I just want to go in and I want to order a coffee and I wanted to be right. And I just want to sit and not like have to like, think about my image at this place. And that's all that I think about. I think that's like my anxiety, saying that but like it. There's something performative about it to me when I go into a coffee shop nowadays. Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 48:03

Yeah, I understand that. I appreciate that.

Jack Weidner: 48:07

And I do the dance. Like I'm not saying I'm better than the dance. Oh, no, no. Yeah.

Harry Weidner: 48:11

I mean, but I I feel like you can find yourself a coffee shop. That you don't have to feel like that. You know, maybe yeah, the nature of where you live. The sample size is limited for coffee shops that you can go to.

Jack Weidner: 48:31

Yeah, like Cafe Reggio in New York City is probably like I went in a few weeks ago after seeing a talk. And I sat down, someone came up, they asked me what I wanted. I just said, you know, I ordered a cappuccino. And I think I got a quiche. And they were like, cool. Took my menu. They brought it they left there were no niceties. Like we were polite, but like we weren't like, Oh my God, how are you? And he left me alone. I finished. I was alone for three hours. I pulled out a book I read for three hours. And then eventually he came back he's like, do you want to check? I was like, Yeah, sure. And then I left that was it. It was great. Yeah, I

Harry Weidner: 49:17

mean, that's just an example of like finding a place where you feel comfortable. And yeah, that meets what you're looking for. I think I think what might bother you about it is that you go places just to watch other people you know you go there selflessly to watch and listen to other people. And some other people might be going there to pretend to do what you're doing.

Jack Weidner: 49:53

I don't Yeah, I also don't like being this is gonna sound so dumb. I don't like being perceived. I get very selfish conscious. So then I get anxious. And like, I had to talk to someone the other day and I do when I get anxious, I do this thing where I like run my finger. That's pretty common, but I do this where I like run my fingers through each other. So I like ask them for something and I went up and I was like this. Oh, because I was anxious that I was like, I think like fucking schmeeckle trying to ask for a bag that I like, I'm like, worried of like, people saw that as, like, such a terrible experience. Yeah. Like, why can't we just be cool? Like, why? Like Bob Dylan? So cool. I feel like a Bob Dylan went to a coffee shop in the 60s. He just be chill, but do you know why he's cool? Because

Harry Weidner: 50:40

he doesn't care. Like he genuinely. Genuinely doesn't care. That's so cool. I know. It's so cool. Um, but like, he's just gonna be Bob Dylan. And he's gonna make the music that he wants to make and like, yeah, that's what's cool about it. And we've talked about this before, but he stopped being Bob Dylan when people expected him to be Bob Dylan, because he just wanted to do it.

Jack Weidner: 51:03

And then he changed Bob Dylan. Now he now he does gospel music.

Harry Weidner: 51:10

Or should we wrap it wrap it up? This was good.

Jack Weidner: 51:12

I think so. This was good. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if this is interesting. I learned a lot about cost,

Harry Weidner: 51:17

man. It's all up in my dome. It's all it's all. It's all up there somewhere.

Jack Weidner: 51:24

Well, thank you so much for sticking around. See how this mess unravels? We're gonna put up don't forget to donate to Harry so he can run the Boston Marathon, please. We should do. We should do a donate a THON, where we just live stream a pod.

Harry Weidner: 51:41

Dude, I'm not kidding. I will do anything for someone to donate some. Whatever

Jack Weidner: 51:46

you got, if you guys want. How about this? If you guys want Harry to do Harry and I to do something to get him donations, please email us at our tangled minds@gmail.com and we will do whatever you suggest within reason. Thank you so much. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your week because this comes out on Monday. Hope your Monday.

Harry Weidner: 52:09

Have a great Monday. Have a great one. All right. All right.